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Old 14-02-2018, 17:38   #106
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Eric 50 said it better than I could have! That is coming from a guy who spent about 20 year seining, trolling and gill netting commercially.
You made the right decision, by the way!
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Old 14-02-2018, 17:57   #107
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Right from the beginning of this thread, your own questions provided your answer.
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Old 14-02-2018, 18:20   #108
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Sorry, WIM, I forgot to mention that Boatman61 is reputed to be an outstanding delivery skipper. He has been on CF for longer than me and is very experienced. My guess is he would not have any truck with the crew as it is currently constituted. He can get his own and would prefer that, I believe. The woman that owns the boat should be provided with his e-mail.
Good luck and you have made the sensible decision.
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Old 15-02-2018, 03:30   #109
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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Originally Posted by Eric50 View Post
Where I live, the fishermen have a say :

You can have a good boat, a good crew and a bad skipper, you will not have a good fishing...

You can have a good boat, a bad crew and a good skipper, you will not have a good fishing...

You can have a bad boat, a good crew and a good skipper, you will not have a good fishing...

You can sail safely without electronics, this is not the most important, but a good sound boat and, good crew and a good skipper are paramount.
I agree, but a "good crew" doesn't necessarily mean a whole crew of crack Yachtmaster Oceans.

A "good captain" doesn't need to be a crack sailor himself.

You only need one good captain and one good seaman to run a sailboat well on a long passage or even an ocean crossing. These two can be combined in a single person. Extra hands can be completely unskilled and still be very useful, when properly led.

A good captain is a good organizer and leader and knows how to get the best out of a diverse crew. One good seaman, whether he's the captain or one of the crew, will have the knowledge needed, if the captain knows how to use him properly.

Good crew is a person who is eager to help and is not afraid to ask questions. Bonus if the person doesn't get seasick and has a generally cheerful attitude. I actually prefer crew who have zero sailing experience, to those have just some experience. Zero experience means you can teach correct things from the beginning.

I sail my own boat very happily with crews of nearly totally inexperienced people. It doesn't take long to teach someone how to keep a good watch. Everything else is gravy.

Obviously the boat must be sound, but that doesn't mean necessarily having all the latest electronics.
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Old 15-02-2018, 04:59   #110
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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I agree, but a "good crew" doesn't necessarily mean a whole crew of crack Yachtmaster Oceans.

A "good captain" doesn't need to be a crack sailor himself.

You only need one good captain and one good seaman to run a sailboat well on a long passage or even an ocean crossing. These two can be combined in a single person. Extra hands can be completely unskilled and still be very useful, when properly led.

A good captain is a good organizer and leader and knows how to get the best out of a diverse crew. One good seaman, whether he's the captain or one of the crew, will have the knowledge needed, if the captain knows how to use him properly.

Good crew is a person who is eager to help and is not afraid to ask questions. Bonus if the person doesn't get seasick and has a generally cheerful attitude. I actually prefer crew who have zero sailing experience, to those have just some experience. Zero experience means you can teach correct things from the beginning.

I sail my own boat very happily with crews of nearly totally inexperienced people. It doesn't take long to teach someone how to keep a good watch. Everything else is gravy.

Obviously the boat must be sound, but that doesn't mean necessarily having all the latest electronics.


I disagree with your ideas about inexperienced crew. As long as you stay healthy and onboard with no serious injuries, what you say works just fine. But I think you owe it to your inexperienced crew to have at least one other crew member other than yourself onboard who is capable of getting the boat (and crew) back into port if something unfortunate happens to you. That’s another responsibility of a good skipper that you seem to be overlooking.
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Old 15-02-2018, 05:15   #111
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Sorry, WIM, I forgot to mention that Boatman61 is reputed to be an outstanding delivery skipper. He has been on CF for longer than me and is very experienced. My guess is he would not have any truck with the crew as it is currently constituted. He can get his own and would prefer that, I believe. The woman that owns the boat should be provided with his e-mail.
Good luck and you have made the sensible decision.
Cheers, Phil2
It was put to me but.. I was not into the team leader crap that seemed to be the order of the day on the boat..
Skippers are the team leaders... it would have been like being captain of a German warship during WW2 with a Gestapo/SS officer on board who could over rule all my decisions.
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Old 15-02-2018, 05:17   #112
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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I disagree with your ideas about inexperienced crew. As long as you stay healthy and onboard with no serious injuries, what you say works just fine. But I think you owe it to your inexperienced crew to have at least one other crew member other than yourself onboard who is capable of getting the boat (and crew) back into port if something unfortunate happens to you. That’s another responsibility of a good skipper that you seem to be overlooking.
Fair enough.

But I was pointing out the minimum manning requirements, not the optimum ones. Obviously it is very desirable that the captain be a good sailor, and it is also desirable that he is not the only person on board who knows how to sail. If you only have a skipper who is a good sailor plus a crew of newbies, then what you are doing is very much like single handing, except that you are exposing the newbies to a risk that you will get sick or fall overboard, as you say. Does that make it a REQUIREMENT that you should have at least one other good sailor on board? I dunno -- do you never take a non-sailor sailing with you on your own boat? If so, you're doing exactly the same thing. But your point is taken and I respect your point of view.
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Old 15-02-2018, 05:24   #113
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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. . . .Skippers are the team leaders... it would have been like being captain of a German warship during WW2 with a Gestapo/SS officer on board who could over rule all my decisions.
Ah, you're confusing the Kriegsmarine with the Soviet VMF. The captain was supreme on German vessels, which did not normally carry political officers, unlike the Soviet ones.

But it has recently come to light that Soviet political officers also did not have broad rights to overrule decision of the captain. There was some mythology involved with our ideas about this. See: https://warisboring.com/so-you-want-...tical-officer/
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Old 15-02-2018, 05:25   #114
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Re: Would you deliver her?

The fishermen say I quoted was to be understandable by skilled sailors and the like.

A good skipper is the one that take the good decision, for example to stay onshore if he is feeling that the condition for a safe journey are not met, or if he'll probably be overwhelm by the future conditions he'll encounter.

A good boat is a boat that is safe and reliable enough to withstand the unexpected weather and sea condition it'll encounter in the next journey.

A good crew is a manageable crew by the good skipper, under all circumstance, if not, it is not a good crew....it has nothing to do with skill and experience, but with egos most of the time, and nationalities as well...(french are terrible individuals and egotic beyond all recognition, I can say it I am french...).

It is a bit like choosing a women about a large panel of intelligent ones, very wealthy ones, nice looking or other nice qualities they can have...




















At the end we take the one with the largest breast, no ?
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Old 15-02-2018, 05:52   #115
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It is a bit like choosing a women about a large panel of intelligent ones, very wealthy ones, nice looking or other nice qualities they can have...

At the end we take the one with the largest breast, no ?
NO..!!!!
More than a handful is a waste..
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Old 15-02-2018, 05:54   #116
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric50 View Post
The fishermen say I quoted was to be understandable by skilled sailors and the like.

A good skipper is the one that take the good decision, for example to stay onshore if he is feeling that the condition for a safe journey are not met, or if he'll probably be overwhelm by the future conditions he'll encounter.

A good boat is a boat that is safe and reliable enough to withstand the unexpected weather and sea condition it'll encounter in the next journey.

A good crew is a manageable crew by the good skipper, under all circumstance, if not, it is not a good crew....it has nothing to do with skill and experience, but with egos most of the time, and nationalities as well...

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Old 15-02-2018, 05:56   #117
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Re: Would you deliver her?

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NO..!!!!
More than a handful is a waste..
My father used to say that (maybe still does).

Except that it was MOUTHFUL, not handful

I tend to agree It's the old "built for speed" vs "built for comfort" discussion, innit.
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Old 15-02-2018, 08:21   #118
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Re: Would you deliver her?

Well, in light of a recent thread, THAT should put the cat among the pigeons!

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Old 15-02-2018, 08:35   #119
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Re: Would you deliver her?

I agree on all counts, Boatman!
Cheers, Phil2
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