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Old 05-07-2011, 17:41   #31
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

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Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
All this is still a bit confusing. When I signed the contract for the building of the new boat the company told me I would not have a problem with VAT on the boat because the boat would be leaving Europe and I think they said I have 18 months to leave before I would have to pay VAT. I also asked about buying the goods like a new Avon, outboard, cookware, everything needed for a new boat and was told to give my orders to the company and they would purchase the items so no VAT would be paid. I hope that will be ok or we will go broke. Does anyone one know what the official organization in charge of VAT is so I can contact them to get a better idea?
Not to change the subject too much but it seems hard for non EU cruisers to stay in Europe longer than 6 months. We will have to be in Europe 7 months to be able to make the cross over in November. We get the boat in France in June 2013 but want to be at the factory a month before to oversee the completion. Will it be hard to get an extension of a visa so we can wait out the hurricane season before crossing?
Thanks for any imput.
What are the chances of getting the company to date the paper work and/or delivery so that you can get your timing right to sail back to USA within the allowed period?
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Old 05-07-2011, 17:48   #32
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

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Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
All this is still a bit confusing. When I signed the contract for the building of the new boat the company told me I would not have a problem with VAT on the boat because the boat would be leaving Europe and I think they said I have 18 months to leave before I would have to pay VAT. I also asked about buying the goods like a new Avon, outboard, cookware, everything needed for a new boat and was told to give my orders to the company and they would purchase the items so no VAT would be paid. I hope that will be ok or we will go broke. Does anyone one know what the official organization in charge of VAT is so I can contact them to get a better idea?
Not to change the subject too much but it seems hard for non EU cruisers to stay in Europe longer than 6 months. We will have to be in Europe 7 months to be able to make the cross over in November. We get the boat in France in June 2013 but want to be at the factory a month before to oversee the completion. Will it be hard to get an extension of a visa so we can wait out the hurricane season before crossing?
Thanks for any imput.
I must be missing something. With 18 months after delivery to get the boat out of the EU can't you just do a "visa run" after your first 6 months and come back for another? The boat doesn't have to leave in 6 months, just you right?
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Old 05-07-2011, 17:50   #33
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

A thought, how about spending 6 months in Europe, then spending the last month in Morroco before heading out? It's outside the EU so shouldn't be a problem.
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Old 05-07-2011, 18:10   #34
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

Thanks for the great ideas guys. I am thinking of Morroco if I have too. But I have never sailed to any Island or country that would not extend your stay for repair or weather problems. I think having Boreal delay the paper work would be against the law and I would not want them in any trouble I don't think they would do that anyway. Besides the customs entering into France will have control of the Visa. Not really anywhere to sail to outside the EU that is close to Britany that I know of. I also think it is 6 months in one years time.
For those that need to buy an expensive item in the EU I wonder if you hired a port agent to do the paper work at less cost than the Vat would be OK. Sounds like marine companies are just not set up to do the paper work or not allowed too. But then how is Boreal allowed to do it, they are a very small company?
I live in Oregon USA, we have no sales tax and when I but items of cost in the next state over Washington where there is a steep sales tax I just show them my drivers license and they fill out a short form I sign it and no sales tax paid.
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Old 05-07-2011, 18:23   #35
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

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Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
Not really anywhere to sail to outside the EU that is close to Britany that I know of. I also think it is 6 months in one years time.
The Channel Islands are outside the EU (for VAT purposes). and a fairly civilised place to keep / store a boat. Certainly won't need to bring a gun
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Old 05-07-2011, 18:58   #36
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

And the builder of the boat has the necessary licenses to sell boats exempt from VAT if the boat is going to be exported. That is why he told you to use his operation to order/purchase the other things you wanted to put into the boat. They all then would be under his license to export without VAT.
- - Buying from a storefront yourself will require paying the VAT/sales tax because it is normally not worth the store's time to get an export license and do all the paperwork involved.
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Old 06-07-2011, 06:11   #37
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Re: VAT Refund p\Possible When Exiting EU ?

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That's not quite right Judy. Only if the store you are purchasing from does not have a store in the state to which the goods are being shipped. So, if you buy from West Marine in LA and ship to Virginia you pay sales tax because WM has stores in Virginia. If you have any doubt about this here is it is right from their website.
You are correct. I forget that West Marine has a national presence as well as an international presence and is therefore subject to sales tax in all states. A better example might have been if someone purchased batteries from Joe's Battery Shop in Houston, Texas, and had them delivered to Louisiana. They would pay no sales tax on the purchase in Texas. Technically, it is their responsibility to notify the state of Louisiana that they have made an out-of-state purchase and to pay Louisiana use tax (which is normally combined with sales tax collection). I filed monthly sales tax reports and payments for 8 companies in both Texas and Florida during my working years, so I am somewhat familiar with sales tax.

Our the situation of our purchase of batteries in Greece, these batteries were delivered and installed into a USA vessel. They were not delivered to a local address. In other countries the VAT would either not been charged in the first place or would have been refunded when the USA vessel departed the country of purchase. It is our own fault for not checking into the VAT issue before purchasing the batteries. It would have been much less expensive to just wait and purchase them in Turkey after we leave Greece. We already know how extremely easy it is to obtain a VAT refund in Turkey on purchases of items delivered to our boat.

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Old 07-07-2011, 08:01   #38
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Originally Posted by osirissail
And the builder of the boat has the necessary licenses to sell boats exempt from VAT if the boat is going to be exported. That is why he told you to use his operation to order/purchase the other things you wanted to put into the boat. They all then would be under his license to export without VAT.
- - Buying from a storefront yourself will require paying the VAT/sales tax because it is normally not worth the store's time to get an export license and do all the paperwork involved.
Boy is there a lot of misinformation in this thread. EU VAT ( and that's what were talking about) is administered by the seller. There are three scenarios. (a)The goods must physically leave his country to another EU country to a VAT registered business, in which case VAT is deducted at the point of sale.
(b) the goods are exported to a non EU address again by a recognised courier. Your US boat sitting in a EU harbour is NOT outside the EU at the point of sale.
(c) you are a private citizen , not VAT registered and are purchasing goods or services ( VAT is on services as well) in that case the sales transaction and the delivery point is within the country. VAT is always due and the retailer carries the responsibility if he screws up.

There are no " export licenses " in relation to VAT. In the case of the french boat purchaser. Normally no reputable company especially in France risks not charging the VAT. In France the ruled are that the seller holds the VAT in " bond" until you show proof that the goods have been exported. However it's his risk not yours if he decides not to do this scheme and merely assumes you will export the boat.

MAKE sure you don't get hit with this VAT bond. They may consider it a VAT free sake but still apply the bond.

Note technically you have 90 days in which to export it. But as a non EU tax resident you can " import" the boat for 18 months without VAT being due. Hence in practice you get 18 months.

In relation to your visa. In france when you arrive you will get a 90 day Schengan visa stamped into your passport. That a total of 90 days out of 180 totalled across all Schengan area EU countries visited It cannot be reset by a few days outside the area. Once you've used up the 90 days it's put of the Schengen area for 90 days ( you could go to the UK). There are no extensions to the Schengen tourist visa


Note that VAT is often used " generically".but VAT is a specific Eu wide tax. Except for those funny islands etc. !! Countries outside the EU have completely different sales tax schemes which mayor may not be easier to claim back such taxes.

Ps it would be impossible to have a chandlery participate in a VAT refund scheme as such products are not classed as being eligible.

dave.
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:54   #39
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

We purchased a new RIB in Turkey in 2007 and explained we were exporting it within 90 days.
The chandler told me to pay his bill by card (which included VAT) and get the invioce stamped by Turkish Authorities when we cleared out. That we did.
I sent a copy of the stamped invoice back to the retailer. He presumably adjusted his books, but most importantly recredited the 20% VAT to my card account.
Of course Turkeys not in the EU, but I simply cannot see why any EU chandler could not do a similar thing provided you arranged this planned 'exportation' in advance.
Good luck
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:17   #40
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

Greece. Very bad place to GET anything from the govt lately ;-)

b.

But generally you can get the refund on exiting the EU.
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:35   #41
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

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Of course Turkeys not in the EU, but I simply cannot see why any EU chandler could not do a similar thing provided you arranged this planned 'exportation' in advance
In fact they can just do that. Thats How I mentioned the buying a boat works. Any retailer for any product in teh EU can do just what you said. ie you pay the VAT and you then show that they are actually exported and then they refund the VAT.

BUT

(A) In the EU the exporting documentation is more then just that, there are VIES and INTRASTAT etc.

(B) Customs in the EU dont deal with VAT, and have little interest in getting involved.

(C) Retailers arnt interested in the risk.

(d)Services cannot be VAT refunded as the point of sale is in teh country in question

The other complication is that the Customs authority in question must be convinced that you are leaving the EU. So buying in greece and leaving to italy wont wash it.


Also technically youre not supposed to "use " the equipment in the country of purchase.

what you cant get is a refund from the custom or Govt agency, the only refund is from the retailer on proof of export.

but as I said in theory theres nothing to stop them doing it ( This is different to a VAT refund scheme)


SO why not get send a copy of your turkish entry form to the retailer in greece and look for a VAT refund, you are entitled to it. The Retailer must refund within 5 weeks of receiving you documentation. ( one thing you could do, is get the Turks to stamp the invoice).

The goods must have been exported within 90 days of purchase

what I was explaining, is that its not possible to complete the purchase without paying the VAT, it is possible to reclaim it from the retailer
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Old 07-07-2011, 17:33   #42
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

Thank you goboatingnow for your information. I guess I better get an email of to the company and get their take on matters. The thought of putting, I guess 20% VAT down on an expensive boat is not something I want to do, better put elsewhere. It's funny I talked with a guy that had a new HR made in Sweden and he told me he did not have to pay a VAT. He spent time in Europe before crossing. So like always I'm always confused on such matters.

If you are right on the visa I guess we will be going to Morroco for our last month on that side of the pond. Morroco sounds great from what little I have read.
Thanks again
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Old 13-07-2011, 08:46   #43
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

Time to sort a few things.

1. France does indeed have a system of export licences and these are of particular relevance to anyone registered for VAT in France wishing to zero rate goods for VAT purposes ( called TVA in France ) and export them. You would also expect any regular exporter to apply for registered Authorized Economic Operator status and use that to reduce their own time and expense wasted on government inspections and paperwork regarding the export process.

Given that you are not the exporter this should not be your concern.


2. There is no French law which renders chandlery ineligible either for participation in a VAT refund scheme or zero rating and export. In theory you could buy chandlery either way. I have no idea who does it but the door is certainly not closed. The refund system involves a heap of paperwork and the export system means you would have to take delivery somewhere outside EU like Channel Islands, Gibraltar or Morocco.

There has been a bit of recent carry on involving VAT exemptions and superyachts but that won't affect you either.


3. The 90 day Schengen visa system is well written up all over the place so I won't bother with it. Even so, you don't have to use it. France has a system of long stay visas which might appeal. Here is the application form
http://www.consulfrance-washington.o...e_LS_eng-2.pdf

Here is some information from the French Consulate in Australia website.
Long Stay Visitor visa - La France en Australie

You must apply for a stay of less than 6 months or they might decide to call you a VAT resident. OUCH ! Tres onereux !


4. Ask the boat builder about offshore delivery to you as distinct from VAT refund to you. i.e. the sale to you is an export so you don't pay VAT at all. No refund, no nothing. They may not do it but I would be surprised if they didn't. The basic idea is that you collect the boat in Jersey, Guernsey or Gibraltar. This type of transaction is specifically exempt from VAT by EU Council Directive.

The boatbuilder would have to hire a skipper for the France - Jersey (say) voyage, at your expense, but that cost shouldn't be too onerous. It sure beats messing about with 100k, or whatever, worth of VAT refund.


That'll do.
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Old 13-07-2011, 11:57   #44
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Re: VAT Refund Possible When Exiting EU ?

It's amazing how certain someone states it's not possible to do things that are being done by thousands every day.

To buy anything from any shop (without them cooperating even) tax free in Holland : https://www.vatfree.nl/

If you buy a lot from a chandlery just talk to them before paying to agree on a procedure to retrieve VAT. Often a visit to customs is required.

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Old 13-07-2011, 19:00   #45
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It's amazing how certain someone states it's not possible to do things that are being done by thousands every day.

To buy anything from any shop (without them cooperating even) tax free in Holland : https://www.vatfree.nl/

If you buy a lot from a chandlery just talk to them before paying to agree on a procedure to retrieve VAT. Often a visit to customs is required.

ciao!
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That scheme you link to is the conventional VAT refund scheme that most countries run at airports. I'll leave it to your imagination as to whether you'll find the same service available at your Marina !

Dave
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