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Old 01-02-2011, 13:54   #16
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I know some others have said similar but OMG, what a statement! You obviously have never owned a boat or if you have, have no idea how they are packaged.

Modern boats easily have black water tanks becaused they were designed to have them from new. Retrofitting something like that is not simply a case of 'loosing a bit of under seat storage...' but you have to consider the balance and trim of the boat.

Sticking a 200 gal tank randomly in a bit of free space will drasticaly effect the handling and balence of the boat.

Back to the original topic, I suspect that this is another way the authorities are looking to make more money from cruisers. They will get money from pump out or from fines as retrofitting will not be an option for many, especialy smaller, boats.
Funny that owned 7 boats, including two mobos, and in addition three RIBS, several sailing dinghies and delivered many yachts. I have been sailing for 30 years and 10's of thousands of miles, But hey what do I know. (ogh and im a commercially endorsed yachtmaster ocean, a radar instructor, a Marine radio instructor and a powerboat instructor).


Firslty its rubbish to suggest you need a 200 gallon tank, secondly replumbing is a bit of a pain, but its not difficult or technical work ( if you understand a bit about plumbing). Thirdly think of all the through hulls thats get removed.

The primary purpose of greywater tanks is to keep a day or two of waste water, until you go offshore and dispose of it. In my boat there is three sinks and a shower outlet. The sinks are easy to do and the shower is a little more complicated due to access issues.

PS: My boat was not originally designed to have blackwater tanks.

in my case a two 50 litres greywater tanks could be fitted comfortably in the dead area under the two head sinks, the Galley one could be fitted under the Galley sink.


I actually owned a mobo where all the grey water discharged into a very deep bilge, its was fine for a day or two and I added chemicals to kill any smell. Then it was pumped over from time to time.


Yes its a problem if you have heavy waste water generators like washing machines, but I dont want to be swiming in your grease. However its possible to get a good CE rated washing machine now with around 6 litres per kilogram of washing water.

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Back to the original topic, I suspect that this is another way the authorities are looking to make more money from cruisers. They will get money from pump out or from fines as retrofitting will not be an option for many, especialy smaller, boats.
Wrong and wrong, care for the water quality and the tourist revenue its brings is whats driving it, It youre ever lucky enough to sail around Gocek or Skopai Limani youll understand why.

Please dont insult me

Dave
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:19   #17
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Firslty its rubbish to suggest you need a 200 gallon tank, secondly replumbing is a bit of a pain, but its not difficult or technical work ( if you understand a bit about plumbing). Thirdly think of all the through hulls thats get removed.

The primary purpose of greywater tanks is to keep a day or two of waste water, until you go offshore and dispose of it. In my boat there is three sinks and a shower outlet. The sinks are easy to do and the shower is a little more complicated due to access issues.

PS: My boat was not originally designed to have blackwater tanks.

in my case a two 50 litres greywater tanks could be fitted comfortably in the dead area under the two head sinks, the Galley one could be fitted under the Galley sink.

. . . .

It youre ever lucky enough to sail around Gocek or Skopai Limani youll understand why.


Dave
Well, yes. A few tens of liters of gray water tankage would not be a problem in my boat, and below the waterline where it would not negatively affect trim.

I think prohibitions against the discharge of gray water are rubbish, yielding exactly zero point zip benefit to the environment, but if they end up being enforced somewhere, I will obey them. It's not a disastrous inconvenience.

Lastly, the area of Turkey referred to is MAGICAL. Sailed there a few times and am homesick for it constantly. It is so beautiful.
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:23   #18
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I think prohibitions against the discharge of gray water are rubbish, yielding exactly zero point zip benefit to the environment, but if they end up being enforced somewhere, I will obey them. It's not a disastrous inconvenience.
I agree and disagree, its really about boat concentrations, In certains areas of the med at peak times some bays have 80-100 yachts in close proximity, thats a lot of waste.

IN general yes the issue is ridiculous, but not in some very specific areas.

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Old 01-02-2011, 14:27   #19
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I agree and disagree, its really about boat concentrations, In certains areas of the med at peak times some bays have 80-100 yachts in close proximity, thats a lot of waste.

IN general yes the issue is ridiculous, but not in some very specific areas.

Dave
Gray water?! How could even 100 boats' worth of showers dirty a bay? Mind you, we are not talking about black water.
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:32   #20
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Also, I am curious - Are there other places in the world where grey water is prohibited? Obviously most sailboats don't have room for a greywater tank, so it could become quite burdensome.
In South Australia there is a grey water discharge prohibition within 3 miles of the coastline (and fish farm etc). The hardest thing about adding a grey water tank to an existing boat seems to be the plumbing based on experiences at our marina. You can usually find a spot for a very small tank somewhere to get you by for a few days. At least on a new boat you get to reduce the number of thru' hulls.
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Old 01-02-2011, 14:41   #21
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Gray water?! How could even 100 boats' worth of showers dirty a bay? Mind you, we are not talking about black water.
I dont know where youve been lately Dockhead, but its a topic amongst environmentalists in several areas of the Med, ( along with anchor bans). There has been concerns over detergents, unidentifed chemicals ( bleaches, milk etc) being used in boats. I think that if we all act sensibly and dont do foolish things like empty 50 litres of washing machine waste water over the side , then we might stall these rules. ( for a while). But there coming, in certain areas, have no doubt about it.

I like the idea of a greywater tank and a nice deep underwater thruhull pump out, no stains on the hull. no telltale bubles of washing liquid, etc

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Old 01-02-2011, 14:47   #22
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Sticking a 200 gal tank randomly in a bit of free space will drasticaly effect the handling and balence of the boat.
well SIMONMD, perhaps you might just think of where the water came from originally, just think ........

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Old 01-02-2011, 15:02   #23
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i added both blackwater and grey water tanks on the vessel i brought up from the indian ocean,which is now currently in turkey.

on a custom built vessel this is not an insurmountable problem,but on older production vessels could pose expensive problems to solve.

think this ruling is aimed at mainly the guletts,most of which are 70 ft plus and cater for 16 plus guests.................though wouldn't like to get caught chucking bilge water over the side even if it was from a bucket....................
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Old 01-02-2011, 15:02   #24
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So if I use 5 gallons of salt water twice a day in the galley to clean the dishes, and I want to anchor out somewhere for two weeks..........well, you get the picture. It's silly to suggest this isn't an extremly poorly thought out thing.
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Old 01-02-2011, 15:04   #25
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I dont know where youve been lately Dockhead, but its a topic amongst environmentalists in several areas of the Med, ( along with anchor bans). Dave
Dave, DH and I have the same problems in our sailing areas too. The problem is the infrastructure to pump out just isn't there and I can't see it happening any time soon either. I wouldn't know were to go on the south coast of England to even pump out a black water tank, never mind grey.

I see the real problem not being yachts but land based treatment plants. We have one locally (DH, top of Thorney Channel, Chichester) renowned for dumping raw sewage into the sea if it rains hard for a day.

We are considering a holding tank, not cheap or easy on a smaller older yacht, but probably only be used if we are in an area we consider special, eg an area used for swimming. Grey? the amount we produce a year ain't going to alter the price of fish.

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Old 01-02-2011, 15:14   #26
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The problem is the infrastructure to pump out just isn't there and I can't see it happening any time soon either. I wouldn't know were to go on the south coast of England to even pump out a black water tank, never mind grey. ....

I see the real problem not being yachts but land based treatment plants. We have one locally (DH, top of Thorney Channel, Chichester) renowned for dumping raw sewage into the sea if it rains hard for a day.

...
oh in general Pete I agree, the lack of infrastructure etc and often the rules that preceede them. As Atoll says in Turkey I beleive the rules are aimed at the gullets. But it is a topic of conversation in several busy med areas ( I read an article proposing something similar in the Nice-Matin newpaper over the summer).

Equally areas around teh Uk etc in the main dont have anything like the concerntrations in the med, and have the tidal flushing effect. But there is a lot of concern over damage to the close shore areas in parts of teh Med ( Real damaged or imagined). Theres concerns about sea grass die off, phosphates etc, etc Not to mention the fact that teh med is heavilly polluted as it is ( One of the reasons its so clear actually).

There are several trans-med inititatives to try and improve the water quailty, we as small boaters are by no means the problems, but sure as eggs are eggs, well get caught in the cross fire.

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Old 01-02-2011, 16:10   #27
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well SIMONMD, perhaps you might just think of where the water came from originally, just think ........

Dave
OMG, there you go again. The water came from a tank that WAS DESIGNED TO BE IN THE BOAT in the first place. Now, from your first reply to my post (several posts above) you stated that you do indeed profess to know about boats and yet again you undermine your statements by saying something like this. I'm also not sure why you are singleing ME out for your responces as I wasn't the only one to disagree with your first statement and certainly wasn't the first either.

Sure, 200 gals in my post was a bit excesive, i'll happily give you that but I wasn't designing a boat, I was exagerating to making a point. To suddenly make grey water tank manditory would in no way be easy for a varity of reasons and for someone with your 'apparent' experience to intimate that it is seems very odd to me (and others).

However, having said that, 200 gals doesn't sound too unreasonable. You seem to be under the impression that most boats go out to sea on a daily basis or even weekly basis.
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The primary purpose of greywater tanks is to keep a day or two of waste water, until you go offshore and dispose of it.
The simple fact is that most do not. Therefore, if not allowed to discharge grey water, they will need a tank well in excess of their freshwater tankage to cope. Otherwise, you'd have to physicaly take you boat round to a pump out station or out to sea at least weekly to discharge. Not practical at all, especialy if you are a liveaboard.

Now, to hopefully get back on topic, what about washing your boat in Turkish marinas? Surely any runoff would be no different from any grey water that goes down the shower or the sink and indeed would probably be greater in quantity as well.
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Old 01-02-2011, 16:26   #28
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Sure, 200 gals in my post was a bit excesive, i'll happily give you that but I wasn't designing a boat, I was exagerating to making a point. To suddenly make grey water tank manditory would in no way be easy for a varity of reasons and for someone with your 'apparent' experience to intimate that it is seems very odd to me (and others).

I never said it would be "easy", I merely said I couldnt see any "problems", what I meant by that was its a reasonable non-technical task , in general. Nor did I say 200 gallons. Youre exageration to make a point hardly adds to the debate, dont you think

AT no point does anyone beleive it possible to hold say a weeks worth of grey water without serious consideration to tankage space. Yet on the Bene 393 I certainly could find a 100 litre space with out too much issue, on your boat theres likely to be plenty of dead space from my experience of mobos.

I was not arguing against the idioticy of these rules, but they are being discussed and considered and unfortunately if we want to sail these areas in the future then fitment will be a consideration.

Stabilty considerations are mostly moot. Your carrying the water in the first place, all you are doing is moving it around between some tanks. In most cases in any sort of reasonable boat, especially cruisers, 100Kg low down is not a problem.


what annoyed me was your blanket skepticism.

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Old 01-02-2011, 16:53   #29
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Stabilty considerations are mostly moot. Your carrying the water in the first place, all you are doing is moving it around between some tanks. In most cases in any sort of reasonable boat, especially cruisers, 100Kg low down is not a problem.
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Come on, its not that simple and you should know that. Where do you get the water from in a marina? A HOSE. Therefore you are not just 'moving water from one place to another'.

The only time this would apply would be out of the marina where you would just pump it overboard anyway!

Also, many sailboats do not rely JUST on their on board water supply, most have a seawater inlet for use with deck washing, sink rinsing, etc. and many these days (especialy long term dedicated cruisers) will have a water maker, giving them in effect, an inexhausable supply just like when connected to the mains in a marina.
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Old 01-02-2011, 17:11   #30
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Come on, its not that simple and you should know that. Where do you get the water from in a marina? A HOSE. Therefore you are not just 'moving water from one place to another'.

The only time this would apply would be out of the marina where you would just pump it overboard anyway!
Hang on, Most of the regulations are not neccessrily about marinas, turkey is considering it in various bays, not neccessarily marinas. In fact ultimately in marinas it could be handled by dedicated waste water facilities, much like you have a dediciated water feed.

Again in a decent sailboat or mobo, reallyhandling 100Kg of water, most of which is simply removed from one water tank and then fed to the waste tank, leaving aside watermakers, as most of these are used offshore and really doesnt apply here.

Really stability concerns are not a problem, people put 500-1000Kg of personal possesions on sailboats all the time. not to mention big radomes up the mast, extra batteries etc , etc extra radar arches, dinghies on deck etc etc, 100kg low down in the boat probably contributes to stability

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