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Old 21-03-2015, 11:06   #106
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

No I don't know about the rest of this thread but he is correct In that.
Firestorms: The Bombing of Civilians in World War II

Before World War II, most nations condemned targeting civilians in bombing raids. As the war went on, the nations at war expanded their bombing targets from military to industrial ones, then to workers' houses, and finally to entire cities and their civilian populations.

http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-right...n-world-war-ii
It's in history books as well not to mention the know fact we dropped the bomb for this very reason.

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Old 21-03-2015, 11:33   #107
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Where do you get your 'facts'?
About the WWII? That's common knowledge and you have just to look at facts, where the bombs fell.

"Plans for a large and intense aerial bombing of Berlin and the other eastern cities had been discussed under the code name Operation Thunderclap in mid-1944, but it had been shelved on 16 August.... "We should use available effort in one big attack on Berlin and attacks on Dresden, Leipzig, and Chemnitz, or any other cities where a severe blitz will not only cause confusion in the evacuation from the East"... ...strikes against communications in these cities to disrupt civilian evacuation from the east... Evill states interfering with mass civilian movements was a major, even key, factor in the decision to bomb the city centre ....would have a detrimental effect on German morale."

However, he mentioned that aircraft diverted to such raids should not be taken away from the current primary tasks of destroying oil production facilities, jet aircraft factories, and submarine yards.

Bombing of Dresden in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you know that entire German towns were wiped out? Not industrial centers, not fabrics, just civilians, men women and children. Do you never heard of Dresden bombing, one of the war atrocities? Only in Dresden 600000 civilians died.

Dresden - The Worst War Crime Of WWII - 600,000 Dead
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Old 21-03-2015, 11:36   #108
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Yes, that remembers me the tactics regarding bombing on WWII. At first the allies bombed only military targets and factories but they found out that the factories could be rebuilt easily and fast so in the name of "less expenditure and physical resources required" it was decided to bomb civilian populations with the objective of killing the biggest number of civilians: Factories could be rebuild but the humans to work in them took a lot longer to be substituted.
I recommend you read this BRIA 15 3 a Firestorms: The Bombing of Civilians in World War II - Constitutional Rights Foundation posted by Scuba0_1.

At least on that site, your quote "...less expenditure and physical resources required..." is not offered as a justification for bombing cities. Nor is there any suggestion killing "...the biggest number of civilians..." in order to slow the re-building of factories was a matter of policy.

Bombing cities was apparently undertaken in order to make life very difficult for people by destroying houses. Were they occupied at the time? No doubt.

The other thing worth noting is the historical summary of bombing as a tactic. Take particular note of the countries who first adopted bombing as a tactic and which promoted as a matter of policy, agreement to avoid targeting civilians.

Whether you agree with the proposition more lives were saved by hastening the end of WWII by using 'the bomb' on Japan or not, it was a decision made following many years of warfare and many lives lost.
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Old 21-03-2015, 11:41   #109
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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About the WWII? That's common knowledge and you have just to look at facts, where the bombs fell.

"Plans for a large and intense aerial bombing of Berlin and the other eastern cities had been discussed under the code name Operation Thunderclap in mid-1944, but it had been shelved on 16 August.... "We should use available effort in one big attack on Berlin and attacks on Dresden, Leipzig, and Chemnitz, or any other cities where a severe blitz will not only cause confusion in the evacuation from the East"... ...strikes against communications in these cities to disrupt civilian evacuation from the east... Evill states interfering with mass civilian movements was a major, even key, factor in the decision to bomb the city centre ....would have a detrimental effect on German morale."

However, he mentioned that aircraft diverted to such raids should not be taken away from the current primary tasks of destroying oil production facilities, jet aircraft factories, and submarine yards.

Bombing of Dresden in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you know that entire German towns were wiped out? Not industrial centers, not fabrics, just civilians, men women and children. Do you never heard of Dresden bombing, one of the war atrocities? Only in Dresden 600000 civilians died.

Dresden - The Worst War Crime Of WWII - 600,000 Dead
Pick a fight, you may come away with a bloodied nose.
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Old 21-03-2015, 11:48   #110
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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...
If I understand you correctly, the primary reason there's conflict in the Middle East is because 'western' policymakers just don't have the ability to understand and accept other cultures. They are blinded by American exceptionalism and "their way of living and thinking is the right and only way"?

Well, if true why does the U.S. coalition commit resources to protect and defend groups under attack by ISIL mainly in Syria and Iraq? And, why should the U.S. coalition do so when the cultures of these groups are so alien to at least U.S policymakers?

I see a huge contradiction here. Don't you?
Do you believe that, I mean American exceptionaism? That is just what I was pointing out as a way of looking at things at a very particular perspective as if it was the only and right one. That brings with it the inability to understand the others and what motivates them, assuming always that their motivations and wishes are the same that would motivate a US citizen.

You do you think that after the defense provided by the US coalition to "defend groups under attack", invariably things (on an humanitarian level) are now worse then when that intervention was made? Don't you see here some basic flaw in the strategy? Don't you think it is time to rethink the way to intervene?

Anyway I am here to talk about boats not politic, I leave you with all your certainties and moral rightness.
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Old 21-03-2015, 12:00   #111
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Do you believe that, I mean American exceptionaism? That is just what I was pointing out as a way of looking at things at a very particular perspective as if it was the only and right one. That brings with it the inability to understand the others and what motivates them, assuming always that their motivations and wishes are the same that would motivate a US citizen.
You assume...

Quote:
You do you think that after the defense provided by the US coalition to "defend groups under attack", invariably things (on an humanitarian level) are now worse then when that intervention was made? Don't you see here some basic flaw in the strategy? Don't you think it is time to rethink the way to intervene?
Your preferred alternative to the U.S. coalition coming to the defense of people under attack from Daesh is precisely what? And at what cost to those under attack?

Me thinks you need to rethink causes, consequences and what constitutes a reasonable response to unbridled aggression and acts of terrorism.

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Anyway I am here to talk about boats not politic, I leave you with all your certainties and moral rightness.
Condesension will get you nowhere.
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Old 21-03-2015, 12:37   #112
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pirate Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Pick a fight, you may come away with a bloodied nose.
And so it begins.. both are right.. the events happened.. just a hairs split by who's recording of History one read..
Out of little acorns can mighty oaks grow..
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Old 21-03-2015, 14:28   #113
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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And so it begins.. both are right.. the events happened.. just a hairs split by who's recording of History one read..
Out of little acorns can mighty oaks grow..
Among winners there is some controversy about those bombing aiming to kill civilians.

David Cameron lauds our RAF heroes after Welby's Dresden apology | Daily Mail Online

Truth is also that Churchill opposed vehemently the idea of bombing with the express intent to kill the greatest number of civilians but was overruled.

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Old 21-03-2015, 14:35   #114
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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And so it begins.. both are right.. the events happened.. just a hairs split by who's recording of History one read..
Out of little acorns can mighty oaks grow..
So. In the interest of full disclosure, where do you stand? With the Coalition or Daesh?

Or, do you just enjoy playing devil's advocate and stirring things up?

Aggressors wanting to impose their particular brand of religion; despots who'll massacre their own citizens and or neighbors in order to form a Caliphate and grab land from our friends and allies will receive a bloodied nose just like the axis powers did in WWII.

America prefers to avoid civilian casualties, but making that possible largely depends on the people we're endeavouring to defend and protect. Otherwise the U.S. Coalition will do what's necessary, whatever the consequences are to those who take sides with Daesh or play the middle ground.

As for your acorn analogy, if you are referring to Daesh, it will never grow to full maturity because there is already a Coalition of mighty oaks who'll see to it.
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Old 21-03-2015, 14:48   #115
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pirate Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
So. In the interest of full disclosure, where do you stand? With the Coalition or Daesh?

Or, do you just enjoy playing devil's advocate and stirring things up?

Aggressors wanting to impose their particular brand of religion; despots who'll massacre their own citizens and or neighbors in order to form a Caliphate and grab land from our friends and allies will receive a bloodied nose just like the axis powers did in WWII.

America prefers to avoid civilian casualties, but making that possible largely depends on the people we're endeavouring to defend and protect. Otherwise the U.S. Coalition will do what's necessary, whatever the consequences are to those who take sides with Daesh or play the middle ground.

As for your acorn analogy, if you are referring to Daesh, it will never grow to full maturity because there is already a Coalition of mighty oaks who'll see to it.
Well... if after what I've posted you have to ask the question... your not paying attention..
As to the Mighty Oaks.. I was refering to the way every 'leader/antagonist' considers themselves mighty oaks..
And.. the christian history aint studded with glory..
But.. many a Mighty Oak has been brought down in History.. the most recent being Russia in Afghanistan.. I won't include the coalition as they delared victory.. job done and got out in time..
Also.. how do you know the aullsion was not directed toward the 'Acorn' of an arguement you an Polux were begining to nuture..
At the moment your enemy knows you better than you know yourselves..
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Old 21-03-2015, 14:56   #116
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Among winners there is some controversy about those bombing aiming to kill civilians.

David Cameron lauds our RAF heroes after Welby's Dresden apology | Daily Mail Online

Truth is also that Churchill opposed vehemently the idea of bombing with the express intent to kill the greatest number of civilians but was overruled.

Good you're paying attention to accounts describing efforts to avoid civilian casualties during bombing campaigns in WWII. Gives some credibility to assertions by some policy makers were moral men and women.

Isn't this whole discussion driven by our sense of what is and is not moral?

We obviously agree targeting innocent non-combatants is immoral. No matter who does it.

What's wierd though is how historical accounts of war are dragged into the discussion, as if to justify the murders at the hands of ISIL of innocent tourists in Tunesia. Like, who are you to condemn this when during WWII you firebombed innocent civilians?

Pure propaganda.
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Old 21-03-2015, 15:02   #117
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Well... if after what I've posted you have to ask the question... your not paying attention..
As to the Mighty Oaks.. I was refering to the way every 'leader/antagonist' considers themselves mighty oaks..
But.. many a Mighty Oak has been brought down in History.. the most recent being Russia in Afghanistan..


Quote:
I won't include the coalition as they delared victory.. job done and got out in time..
Actually no. As recently as yesterday news has it the Obama administration is revisiting plans to pull out. A major factor is what's happening in Iraq and alleged alignement of splinter Afghanistan insurgents with ISIL...

Quote:
Also.. how do you know the aullsion was not directed toward the 'Acorn' of an arguement you an Polux were begining to nuture..
Nice afterthought. You can be pretty quick on yer feet when caught in a bind...

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At the moment your enemy knows you better than you know yourselves..
And, at times your intent to provoke falls flat, does not warrant much notice at all.
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Old 21-03-2015, 15:27   #118
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pirate Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Actually no. As recently as yesterday news has it the Obama administration is revisiting plans to pull out. A major factor is what's happening in Iraq and alleged alignement of splinter Afghanistan insurgents with ISIL...



Nice afterthought. You can be pretty quick on yer feet when caught in a bind...



And, at times your intent to provoke falls flat, does not warrant much notice at all.
Yeah... whatever.. however Obama might find the welcomes warn out I think.. but hell you know better than I..
I'm not screaming 'Abandon the Med.. and whose asking you to notice.. who'd care..
Were both just wind and piss when alls said and done... just some like to think they can piss further..

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Old 21-03-2015, 15:49   #119
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Yeah... whatever.. however Obama might find the welcomes warn out I think.. but hell you know better than I..


Well, no. Karzai is history and the new President Ghani is asking the U.S. to stay.

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I'm not screaming 'Abandon the Med.. and whose asking you to notice.. who'd care..
My, my. Sarcastic bugger, no?

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Were both just wind and piss when alls said and done...
Alas. Something we can agree upon.

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just some like to think they can piss further..
You mean, like you?
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Old 21-03-2015, 15:53   #120
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

"Truth is also that Churchill opposed vehemently the idea of bombing with the express intent to kill the greatest number of civilians but was overruled." Pollux


This is patently untrue and no serious historian would make this claim. And excellent source of this fact that discusses this in detail is the biography of "Hitler," by British Historian David Irving .
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