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Old 22-03-2015, 10:33   #136
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Nothing to do with being a US policy or not. I don't like policies that worsen problems instead of finishing them. All region is destabilized due to coalition interventions and that is a growing field for terrorist movements. Now they even have an army!!!

You certainly agree the situation on terrorism is now worse than 10 years ago? The biggest difference is that a terrorist movement without no support on populations has now a growing support among Muslim populations and I am not talking about a particular movement regarding support but regarding Islamic fundamentalism. There was only a terrorist movement, now there are many.

Regarding population support it has gonna out of North Africa and now you see many youngsters, boys and girls being recruited in European cities (and out of Europe too) to go fighting for the Islam fundamentalist movements and do they so out of altruism because they believe that is right to do so.

Of course I think they are misguided but that is not the point, the point is that murderers that did have almost no support, have today an increasing support. This seems a victory to you? For each terrorist that is killed two or more are recruited. It seems to you a winning strategy?
Your recommendations? How do you believe the issues you cite can be effectively addressed? Who's going to take part in executing your plan?

The seeds of ISIL were sown in Iraq and are largely a consequence of tribal, ethnic and religous conflict that predates involvement by the U.S. in Iraq by hundreds of years. Blaming the U.S. for Sunni-Shiite hatreds for one another and the existence of militias connected to one or the other is ludicrous. These features have been present across borders and pre-existed any involvement by the U.S. and her coalition partners.

The best thing that's happened recently are declarations by some terrorist groups they're pledging allegiance to ISIL. Leaves no question as to who the "bad guys" are. Previously the U.S. was having difficulty telling one insurgent group from another. Pretty stupid on the part of Boko Harem and other groups who've declared their allegiance to ISIL.

You need to get your facts straight. Movements in Libya, Tunesia and Syria and Egypt encountered violent push back from dictatorial regimes and thus evolved into the earliest manifestations of insurgent groups. What - other than assertions some will make that Americans were somehow engaged in fomenting these movements - fault can be laid at the doorstep of the U.S. when these events occurred?

It was not the U.S. who provided weapons to the insurgencies in the years to follow. It was Saudi Arabia, Iran and other Middle Eastern countries. While ISIL was largely ignored in Syria by Assad, it plotted and planned...

In respect to Libya, U.S. involvement there had put the country on a path toward Democracy. The subsequent upheaval is attributable, as one may expect, to historical hatreds between Shiites, Sunnis and other religious and tribal groups.

In one respect, if we could be sure of the outcome, I'd side with boatman61 and let groups vying for top dog status duke it out. But, the humanitarian in me says it would not end well.
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Old 22-03-2015, 10:50   #137
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pirate Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Well. Your commentaries are frequently anti-American in words and tone. Are we Americans supposed to quietly suffer while you spew?

Words matter. Context matters. Links to external information and videos not only expose us to propaganda, but can purposefully lead us to sites actively promoting ISIL. The character of content matters. Where do you think recruitment efforts by ISIL are focused and most successful?

I suggest you go back and objectively read posts that positively reveal a poster's beliefs, sympathies and alignements before you state your opinion that anyone who "...starts chucking out these accusations is both insulting to everyones intelligence and inflamatory.."

You're out of line.
Call it what you will.. to me your mentality has not moved forward since the 50's and Mcarthyism..
A debate has a pro-anti set-up.. this is not a debate this is an open forum..
And... is this the schoolboy bully scare tactic your pulling..?
how american..
Call me what you will.. I'm terrified..

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Old 22-03-2015, 10:57   #138
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Call it what you will.. to me your mentality has not moved forward since the 50's and Mcarthyism..
A debate has a pro-anti set-up.. this is not a debate this is an open forum..
And... is this the schoolboy bully scare tactic your pulling..?
how american..
Call me what you will.. I'm terrified..
Whatever. By the way I usually have difficulty understanding what you're trying to say. I think it's the 'bludi' accent...
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Old 22-03-2015, 11:02   #139
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pirate Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

Ahhh... thats coz I was educated in Pakistan and guess I still have the sing song head wobbling accent..
Forgive me Sahib...
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Old 22-03-2015, 13:27   #140
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Your recommendations? How do you believe the issues you cite can be effectively addressed? Who's going to take part in executing your plan?
....
In one respect, if we could be sure of the outcome, I'd side with boatman61 and let groups vying for top dog status duke it out. But, the humanitarian in me says it would not end well.
I don't have a plan. I leave that to ones with more information and smarter than me but even myself (and anybody) can see that the policy implemented on the last 20 years on the region to bring democracy, implement stability and finish with terrorism has back fired and those interventions had as result the opposed of what was pretended.

It makes no sense to continue with the same policies that through the years had proven that only aggravate the situation. It it time to seat and openly discuss the problem see what went wrong and implement different policies.

A central problem is certainly the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Nothing creates more animosity from the Muslims regarding US then the policy followed by US and that deep resentments is food for terrorist grow. It seems that it is changing and the American president has some strong disagreement with The Israeli government. We will see what happens, anyway we are on a turning point with Iran close to having a nuclear bomb.

Regarding the humanitarian result of the coalition and UN interventions over the last 20 years, even assuming good intentions, the results could not be worse. The humanitarian problem in the region never have been worse, neither the number of refugees from the instability that those interventions created on the region.
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Old 22-03-2015, 23:37   #141
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

The simple truth is no-one wishes to convert or die. We must fight for the freedom to choose not to convert and to live after informing them we will not convert.
Think not? " You shall know them by their fruit." "Elected to office," as if they aren't already. Court Cases influenced by sharia law in the U.S.. The use of the laws on the books to send children to commit act's against non-converts, as the minors would not face the same consequences as an adult. Taking over of city centers and offices. Go, "Walk-about," in Dearborn, MI or Gatlinburg, TN and ask the elderly, see the fear first hand.
"The only thing necessary for evil to succeed, is for good men to standby and do nothing." As the numbers get larger, the acts have gotten bolder.
Don't be upset, if the body joins the head, after sticking the head in the sand.
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Old 23-03-2015, 05:30   #142
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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The simple truth is no-one wishes to convert or die. We must fight for the freedom to choose not to convert and to live after informing them we will not convert.
Think not? " You shall know them by their fruit." "Elected to office," as if they aren't already. Court Cases influenced by sharia law in the U.S.. The use of the laws on the books to send children to commit act's against non-converts, as the minors would not face the same consequences as an adult. Taking over of city centers and offices. Go, "Walk-about," in Dearborn, MI or Gatlinburg, TN and ask the elderly, see the fear first hand.
"The only thing necessary for evil to succeed, is for good men to standby and do nothing." As the numbers get larger, the acts have gotten bolder.
Don't be upset, if the body joins the head, after sticking the head in the sand.
Here we have a very pacific and well respected Muslim community. I don't know of a single case of any problem regarding the sharia.
The radicals are still very few on most Muslim communities and will stay that way if they will not be mistreated or disrespected.

The Muslims, particularly the ones of middle east and Iberia/Mauritania have a long and proud story where tolerance for the other cultures (including religion) was far bigger then the one of Christians. No reason for that to be different now, nothing on their scriptures points other way, at least no more than on the Christians scriptures.
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Old 23-03-2015, 05:42   #143
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Originally Posted by lonesoldier0408 View Post
The simple truth is no-one wishes to convert or die. We must fight for the freedom to choose not to convert and to live after informing them we will not convert.
Think not? " You shall know them by their fruit." "Elected to office," as if they aren't already. Court Cases influenced by sharia law in the U.S.. The use of the laws on the books to send children to commit act's against non-converts, as the minors would not face the same consequences as an adult. Taking over of city centers and offices. Go, "Walk-about," in Dearborn, MI or Gatlinburg, TN and ask the elderly, see the fear first hand.
"The only thing necessary for evil to succeed, is for good men to standby and do nothing." As the numbers get larger, the acts have gotten bolder.
Don't be upset, if the body joins the head, after sticking the head in the sand.
Lol that's great

You might check snopes before you post. I work in Dearborn- been here all fall and winter. Yes there's a large Muslim population but its hardly ground zero for a hostile invasion When I go to the grocery store, for every one Muslim woman in a black full length robe, I see 30 others in a brightly colored headscarf and a North Face jacket living their lives like any other American. Don't let paranoia get the best of you- life's too short.

Incidentally my permanent home is near Gatlinburg. I've spent a lot of time there as well. Its a model of a classic 'Murican tourist trap set in hillbilly Appalachia. The aquarium is cool though AFAIK the city caught a lot of flak from hiring a Muslim, which caused a lot of concerns with some particularly narrow minded locals. I promise you the good ol boys won't put up with any Isis type action in their neck of the woods

I have to wonder, has anyone asked the Cherokee (the original inhabitants of the area) about their views on this threat? I mean after all, they have some experience with outside invaders taking over, forcing a new religion, and ruining their way of life
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Old 23-03-2015, 07:30   #144
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

Delete.
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Old 23-03-2015, 07:42   #145
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

Hi all,
Though this is not an official warning - yet-, two senior naval officers from US and Uk expressed 2 days ago the idea that cruising in the Med would shortly become a risky game, including for those sailing around Corsican and Italian waters. Still fairly difficult for me to believe, but as far as Sardinia is concerned, looking at the map you will realize that the southern tip of Sardinia is just short of 100NM from Tunisian coastline. For a speedboat with armed assholes on board, this is just a few hours away. Rather concerning in my view….
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Old 23-03-2015, 07:46   #146
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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@WRONG - I closed a page on a Cigale 16 to look this up but ~75% of casualties in the Iraq war were civilians.
After that I don't think Boatman's thoughts are going to register compared to helicopter abuse.

I can't work out who is a terrorist and who isn't, Buck Rogers is an American hero (well a literary hero), he is a jet propelled terrorist!

Killing 75% civilians would never have been passed through US government, but somehow it happened anyway?
Not wanting trouble but where in hell did you "look this up"? Thats just plumb crazy..75 % of the casualties were civilians!! Thats absurd and WRONG...
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Old 23-03-2015, 07:50   #147
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Hi all,
Though this is not an official warning - yet-, two senior naval officers from US and Uk expressed 2 days ago the idea that cruising in the Med would shortly become a risky game, including for those sailing around Corsican and Italian waters. Still fairly difficult for me to believe, but as far as Sardinia is concerned, looking at the map you will realize that the southern tip of Sardinia is just short of 100NM from Tunisian coastline. For a speedboat with armed assholes on board, this is just a few hours away. Rather concerning in my view….
It is official,I listened to the message from those assholes(ISIL) and they said as much..Folks making decisions based on past experiences will soon learn that..
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Old 23-03-2015, 07:51   #148
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

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Delete.
Thats what I thought..
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Old 23-03-2015, 07:56   #149
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

[QUOTE=Whitebread117;1781712]Lol that's great

<snip>

Quote:
I have to wonder, has anyone asked the Cherokee (the original inhabitants of the area) about their views on this threat? I mean after all, they have some experience with outside invaders taking over, forcing a new religion, and ruining their way of life
I think Rognavald would be a good candidate to address your question. Seems to have an interest in history and at least considerable knowlege of the same.

My forte is political science, so please bear with me.

There are no good excuses for any group invading, taking over, forcing religion and ruining another group's life. But, unfortunately there are few areas of the world that have escaped conquerors of one stripe or another. The American Indians are only one example. But, I get the jest of your question. It asks what moral right do Americans have to criticize ISIL for it's agression and atrocities?

My answer is. In the contemporary world no advanced country is going to construct its relationships, foreign and public policies upon the past. They may judge the effect of policies present and future by reflecting on the past, but primarily the logic underpinning policies will depend on current events. The other primary consideration is an anticipation of what may occur in the future requiring adaptations and adjustment to policies.

A sense of guilt arising from past misdeeds is not a component of policy formulation.
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Old 23-03-2015, 08:02   #150
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Re: Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

[QUOTE=Wrong;1781788]
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Lol that's great

<snip>



I think Rognavald would be a good candidate to address your question. Seems to have an interest in history and at least considerable knowlege of the same.

My forte is political science, so please bear with me.

There are no good excuses for any group invading, taking over, forcing religion and ruining another group's life. But, unfortunately there are few areas of the world that have escaped conquerors of one stripe or another. The American Indians are only one example. But, I get the jest of your question. It asks what moral right do Americans have to criticize ISIL for it's agression and atrocities?

My answer is. In the contemporary world no advanced country is going to construct its relationships, foreign and public policies upon the past. They may judge the effect of policies present and future by reflecting on the past, but primarily the logic underpinning policies will depend on current events. The other primary consideration is an anticipation of what may occur in the future requiring adaptations and adjustment to policies.

"A sense of guilt arising from past misdeeds is not a component of policy formulation."
You got that right..
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