Should A Non Eu Boat Sail Across The Atlantic To Sail The Med

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Winter med gales will hand you your arse on a plate. Best avoided.

Dave

Just my point. Got stuck doing a late delivery a few years back and had my arse handed to me going around Hatteras in late Oct. Don't want it handed to me again. Once was more than enough.

I'm really struggling to figure out how to "legally" spend a couple of years in Europe. Every plan or schedule I've come up with has some significant drawbacks and I'm just very reluctant to ignore the limits because "everyone else does and no one cares".

How bad would a winter crossing of the Med be if one hugged the N African coast? Far enough south to miss the worst of it or still in harm's way?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Just my point. Got stuck doing a late delivery a few years back and had my arse handed to me going around Hatteras in late Oct. Don't want it handed to me again. Once was more than enough.

I'm really struggling to figure out how to "legally" spend a couple of years in Europe. Every plan or schedule I've come up with has some significant drawbacks and I'm just very reluctant to ignore the limits because "everyone else does and no one cares".

How bad would a winter crossing of the Med be if one hugged the N African coast? Far enough south to miss the worst of it or still in harm's way?

Well do you really want to hug the southern med coastline ( N Africa ) personally Ive witnessed some very nasty weather of Tunisia.

Personally I'd sail the ATlantic in winter before the med !

As to legally staying , yep its a problem. No real fully legal way to do it. ( low flying and radars come to mind !)

Dave

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Personally I'd sail the ATlantic in winter before the med !

Eastbound or westbound? Westbound no problem. Eastbound in northern latitudes not so sure.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As to legally staying , yep its a problem. No real fully legal way to do it. ( low flying and radars come to mind !)

The thought has occurred to me, more than once, but everything I hear and read points to tightening up and plugging the leaks in the system. Maybe I'm just getting paranoid cautious in my old age but very reluctant to fly low these days.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by steve77

Thanks for the correction. I admit I was unsure how to spell "Schengen" and "EU" was the lazy man's way out.

Sorry for lumping y'all in with the Schengen folks!

And to the rest of your point, if we do decide to cross the Atlantic, England is definitely on the list of countries to visit.

Cheers!

don't forget the Malts Tour

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by mhazlett

My wife and I are US citizens and cruisers in our third year in the Med and have had no regrets. We are in Turkey and hold residency permits, which can be obtained for up to five year periods without the tax, application and other issues raised by residency in most Schengen countries. All of North Africa, the Middle East, including Tunisia and Israel, and around to Turkey are non-Schengen. Last summer leaving Turkey by boat we spent time in three non-Schengen countries, Croatia (although as an EU member it is supposed to join at some future point), Montenegro and Albania as well as 88 days in Greece before returning to Marmaris. In an earlier year, we spent a considerable period in Gibraltar where Spain can be entered without a passport stamp—indeed we could not get our passports stamped even when we later sailed into Spain. As best I could determine Gibraltar did not impose a time limit on US boats, although as an overseas territory of the UK I suspect a six month limit is supposed to apply. Morocco of course is also non-Schengen. We have several friends from the US who have spent nearly a decade based in Turkey without problem. The best cruising in the Med is clearly in the eastern Med where Schengen is not the problem it is in Italy and France. I have seen a number of American cruisers write blog laments about cruising in the Med without getting to the eastern Med. A good source on Schengen is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area . It is also important to note that Schengen applies to the people not the vessel and that Americans, Canadians, Aussies, South Africans, South Americans, and citizens of most other countries outside Europe are subject to the same or worse rules. Kiwis get the benefit of special bilateral agreements permitting longer stays in a number of Schengen countries. There is an unrelated VAT issue for the vessel at 18 months in the EU but that is easily addressed by a short trip out of the EU. Sv Pua’ena, Marmaris, Turkey

THANKS for this great & useful post. I was beginning to wonder where we might sail.

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Just my point. Got stuck doing a late delivery a few years back and had my arse handed to me going around Hatteras in late Oct. Don't want it handed to me again. Once was more than enough.

I'm really struggling to figure out how to "legally" spend a couple of years in Europe. Every plan or schedule I've come up with has some significant drawbacks and I'm just very reluctant to ignore the limits because "everyone else does and no one cares".

How bad would a winter crossing of the Med be if one hugged the N African coast? Far enough south to miss the worst of it or still in harm's way?

how can only tell you how we are trying to manage -- we sailed into horta and had some boat repairs done then to terecea for st johns fest and spent to much time there having fun - one more azore quick stop then checked out for the sail to lagos port and some inland travel - 4 stops- then to la linea spain and inland travel for 3 stops before going to the balerics and finally down to callasetta sardinia to check out about 2-3 wks past schengren but the customs guy just wanted to know if our next dest was non shchengren and when i said yes he stamped our passports and waved us on -
by the way going in to sardinia a blow came in 12 hrs early and our winds went from not much to 35k in a heart beat and the season went from flat to very steep and very short and we got beat up a bit for about 4 hours before we got in - that night the winds hit 50+k -
we left sardinia and wintered over in tunisia and about every 5-7 days a blow would come thru and we got just a little of it - it was a lot worse way north of us in the central med -
this year we left tunisia on april 30 and checked into the sardinia and traveled west side by rail and bus and the east side by boat - we went to bonificio and port vecchio in corsica before heading to the tiber and seeing rome - then to anzio and now in salerno for repairs (our alternator decided to go on strike) - we have a lot of thunderstorms in the area so are sitting right now for wx -- we will probably leave tomorrow having used 60 of our 90 days and head to albania which should take 7-9 days -- we did want to sail into venice but that does not appear likely at this time so we will probably see venice by rail - we will spend the summer in albania and croatia before returning to italy with enough days to get across to sciliy and finally down to tunisia for the winter again
next year (God Willing) we will go to malta then italy and on to greece or do a long sail to greece and skip italy - we will spend our days in greece before going to turkey and wintering over there --

hope this helps

we are not seeing all we want to see or do but it is what it is

[BandB]

There are so many sample itineraries. Just one example and not our plan, just for example purposes.

Get six month French visa in advance. So spend 3 months upon arrival in Portugal and Spain under Schengen. Then use the French Visa to spend 3-6 months in France. Next 3 months in the UK. Follow that by 3 in Italy. 3 months in Gibraltar, Tunisia and Croatia. 3 months in Greece. 3 months in Turkey. 3 months in Italy and Spain. 3 months in Gibraltar and UK. 3 months in France and Germany. 3 months in UK. 3 months in Spain and Portugal. Back across the Atlantic.

That's three years. Could cycle as long as required by continuing to mix Schengen and non as well as taking advantage of any individual visas. You can use a country specific visa immediately following 90 days in Schengen. However, you cannot go the other way around as the Schengen country will count the days in the other country.

Perhaps one finds their time in the Schengen countries less than they wish, but perhaps by having to balance they see the beauty of other areas they might have overlooked.

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Just my point. Got stuck doing a late delivery a few years back and had my arse handed to me going around Hatteras in late Oct. Don't want it handed to me again. Once was more than enough.

I'm really struggling to figure out how to "legally" spend a couple of years in Europe. Every plan or schedule I've come up with has some significant drawbacks and I'm just very reluctant to ignore the limits because "everyone else does and no one cares".

How bad would a winter crossing of the Med be if one hugged the N African coast? Far enough south to miss the worst of it or still in harm's way?

just to give you an idea on the winter wx -- doing research on our trip south from salerno using Heikell -- in one of the descriptions of a harbor it reads about the beefed up breakwater - "as protection from winter storms which had been known to shift huge boulders over the quay here"

in other places he talks about the breakwater being broken in winter storms -


just as a hint on how bad the storms can be

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by chuckr

how can only tell you how we are trying to manage -- we sailed into horta and had some boat repairs done then to terecea for st johns fest and spent to much time there having fun - one more azore quick stop then checked out for the sail to lagos port and some inland travel - 4 stops- then to la linea spain and inland travel for 3 stops before going to the balerics and finally down to callasetta sardinia to check out about 2-3 wks past schengren but the customs guy just wanted to know if our next dest was non shchengren and when i said yes he stamped our passports and waved us on -
by the way going in to sardinia a blow came in 12 hrs early and our winds went from not much to 35k in a heart beat and the season went from flat to very steep and very short and we got beat up a bit for about 4 hours before we got in - that night the winds hit 50+k -
we left sardinia and wintered over in tunisia and about every 5-7 days a blow would come thru and we got just a little of it - it was a lot worse way north of us in the central med -
this year we left tunisia on april 30 and checked into the sardinia and traveled west side by rail and bus and the east side by boat - we went to bonificio and port vecchio in corsica before heading to the tiber and seeing rome - then to anzio and now in salerno for repairs (our alternator decided to go on strike) - we have a lot of thunderstorms in the area so are sitting right now for wx -- we will probably leave tomorrow having used 60 of our 90 days and head to albania which should take 7-9 days -- we did want to sail into venice but that does not appear likely at this time so we will probably see venice by rail - we will spend the summer in albania and croatia before returning to italy with enough days to get across to sciliy and finally down to tunisia for the winter again
next year (God Willing) we will go to malta then italy and on to greece or do a long sail to greece and skip italy - we will spend our days in greece before going to turkey and wintering over there --

hope this helps

we are not seeing all we want to see or do but it is what it is

Thanks Chuck,

I have come up with some similar itineraries for the Med. With some care and planning I think cruising the Med and strictly adhering to the Schengen limits is doable. Where I run into a big problem is when I try in incorporate NW Europe.

I cannot find any reasonable way to see Scandinavia at all and can barely consider the Atlantic side of Europe unless I winter over in the UK or Ireland which is not what I had in mind. I guess it could work if I spent no more that a week in each port and sailed more than I visited but that also is not what I had in mind.

Almost wish you hadn't posted the bit about the winter storms. Sometimes I want to fall into the ignorance is bliss category but I guess it's better to realize that knowledge is power.

[carstenb]

Certainly you can stopin Kaliningrad (for 3 months? ) or go to St. Petersburg). Norway is not EU, but I believe there may be some tax issues (boat tax) if you stay there too long. Go boating now seems to have a pretty good handle on this - maybe he knows.

Althoug I have to say (and I'm not advising to break the law). I've never heard of anyone ever being accosted in a Danish harbour.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Certainly you can stopin Kaliningrad (for 3 months? ) or go to St. Petersburg). Norway is not EU, but I believe there may be some tax issues (boat tax) if you stay there too long. Go boating now seems to have a pretty good handle on this - maybe he knows.

Althoug I have to say (and I'm not advising to break the law). I've never heard of anyone ever being accosted in a Danish harbour.

Yes Norway is not a member of the EU but is part of Schengen so no help there. I'll second the banghead for visiting Russia. Reports on noonsite about cruising Russia are not very encouraging.

On the other hand, I do have a good friend from Denmark. Maybe he can pull some strings for me.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Yes Norway is not a member of the EU but is part of Schengen so no help there. I'll second the banghead for visiting Russia. Reports on noonsite about cruising Russia are not very encouraging.

On the other hand, I do have a good friend from Denmark. Maybe he can pull some strings for me.

Actually cruising Russia is not that difficult. Things have become much easier the past couple of years. But the best thing is to hire an agent to get all the paperwork etc etc etc exactly right. If you come this way and decide to do so, let me know; i have the contact details to a very reliable person ( I konw him personally)

[BandB]

Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark perhaps on my list to visit. They could be between three month trips to the UK. Norway and Sweden probably not in my plans but could be added I guess. And no desire on my part to cruise on through to Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, or Russia. I just have to cut my trip off somewhere.

In our case we will take breaks and fly home. That will be part of our non-Schengen time. So we might do things like two months in Germany, Netherlands, and France, then to the UK. Fly home for a month while the boat is in the UK. Ours is somewhat simplified by the fact we would intend to spend one third of our time at home. Likely three months in Europe, followed by six weeks at home. So that would leave us actually only spending six weeks at a time in the non-Schengen countries even though the boat would be there three months.

[Dauntlessny]

Thanks all.
Gives me a number of great cruising schemes.

I did want to start in nw Europe, so was thinking of Norway, Denmark and Holland then back to UK for dinner.

My disappointment is that I had a friend's car and house available in Holland, which would have been really great for winter.

Now, if we make landfall Iv the Azores, all will change.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny

Thanks all.
Gives me a number of great cruising schemes.

I did want to start in nw Europe, so was thinking of Norway, Denmark and Holland then back to UK for dinner.

My disappointment is that I had a friend's car and house available in Holland, which would have been really great for winter.

Now, if we make landfall Iv the Azores, all will change.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

I'd still check with the Embassy or Consulate for the Netherlands. I can't find that for over 90 days they have anything but a residence permit and not sure how you'd qualify for one. But they could answer you. And regardless you could stay there 90 days and then clear our of Schengen for 90.

Amazing how Schengen simplified things for the vast majority of travelers but sure complicated them for us.