Schengen rules have changed

[madsb]

Originally Posted by chala

So what are these special bilateral agreement's that predate Schengen?

As an example you can see those that Denmark have entered into. They are summarized at the bottom of New to Denmark - Visa-free travel (under the heading Citizens of certain countries are entitled to stay in Denmark for 90 days, regardless of stays in other Schengen countries)

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by madsb

As an example you can see those that Denmark have entered into. They are summarized at the bottom of New to Denmark - Visa-free travel (under the heading Citizens of certain countries are entitled to stay in Denmark for 90 days, regardless of stays in other Schengen countries)

Yes thanks. I didn't reply to the post that asked me this. As you can see Australia and NZ ( and others ) have special arrangements. This is replicated in other countries to a lessor or greater extent

Dave

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

So, say that the countries are now checking on your 90 days. You're coming from the US to the Azores and plan to winter in Turkey. How can you abide by the rules? I'm trying to do the math, but can't see how it's possible to do this legally and see any countries in the Schengen area.

With an arrival of the boat in June, what route would be suggested? We are planning this jump right now, and with my OCPD, I don't do well with not following the rules. Please help a brother out!
Matt

Sent from my SM-T210R using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

we crossed over last may and are an american boat -- NOW can i ask a question -- why are you coming over if you want to run from the azores directly to turkey?? do you want to miss portugal, or spain or the baleric islands?? have you taken a look at the distance from gib to turkey?

what we did was visit a few islands in the azores and had a great time but aware of our schengren time left and did stamp out and it was a suggestion of the immigration folks at the azores that we do so to save some days
we went into portugal and stamped back in and did a road trip through portugal and then a sail across to spain and again a road to 3 stops in spain and getting a boat part from gib that we had to be flown in so we could sail - then up to cartagena and through the balerics and then down to tunisia for the winter -- NO IT IS NOT DANGEROUS - and i was shouting --- from the balerics we did a stop in sardinia due to weather and to stamp out -- we had already overstayed our schengren by a few weeks but with the wx absolutely a mess the Italians seemed to understand and when we checked out their only question was non schengren and i said yes and he stamped us out - no issue

we will next year visit sardinia, rome, venice, croatia, albania and sciliy and back for another winter in tunisia - God willling - not sure about the greek tax yet and we do not want to be a guinia pig on it or we would have gone to turkey

so why are you coming if you are going to miss all of europe?

[goboatingnow]

Its an important point, sea journeys are exempt from the Schengen clock. SO there is som advantage on longer trips like Azores -> Mainland europe etc to get an exit stamp

Dave

[Katiusha]

Originally Posted by monte

Croatia will be Schengen this year, but Montenegro and Albania aren't so they are potential stops along the way. Montenegro is beautiful but 2 or 3 weeks would be more than enough

I thought Croatia was joining Schengen in 2015... the following link says "by 2015", which could be meant as "in 2014", but I'm really hoping it'll be delayed until 2015 http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/member-countries/croatia/index_en.htm

No more recent news that I could find.

[chala]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Should the EU reciprocate the effects will be far more telling on the Swiss.

The Swiss have proven to be a resilient mob and apparently with one third of their business going to China they may give up the West for the East.

Originally Posted by monte

Im not aware of any Australian special benifits, but NZ does have 180 days instead of 90 days as Dave said, a special rule predating Schengen.

Looks like the French give no more than 90 days to NZ.
Visa for the Schengen Space, Overseas Carribean Territories (French Guyana, Martinica, Guadeloupe, St Marteens), Reunion Island and Mayotte. - La France en Australie

Originally Posted by madsb

As an example you can see those that Denmark have entered into

This could be tricky. Spend 90 days in Denmark and then move to France to be told that you may have to leave the Schengen region immediately.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Well no thats not right, The Bot judgement by the ECJ, does clearly interpret the rules as LJHs friends are correct. It is the law ( or was the law) . Thats why the law was changed recently. It was not a loophole per say, more an unintended consequence that the french didn't like

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Unintended consequence and loophole are essentially the same thing. Lawyers parsed up the language and argued about the very detailed and specific meaning of words until the court threw up it's hands and let it slide.

I've yet to come across an official source that even remotely suggests this was the intent of the law. In fact even just before the recent change, all the offical country web sites I've come across still insisted it was a the rolling 90 out of the last 180 day principal.

The fact that they changed the rule to close the loophole supports the idea that it was never intended.

It may have been legal but no one could reasonably claim they didn't know it wasn't the intent.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Unintended consequence and loophole are essentially the same thing. Lawyers parsed up the language and argued about the very detailed and specific meaning of words until the court threw up it's hands and let it slide.

I've yet to come across an official source that even remotely suggests this was the intent of the law. In fact even just before the recent change, all the offical country web sites I've come across still insisted it was a the rolling 90 out of the last 180 day principal.

The fact that they changed the rule to close the loophole supports the idea that it was never intended.

It may have been legal but no one could reasonably claim they didn't know it wasn't the intent.

The intent of a law, is one thing, but its actual implementation is often decided by the courts , this goes on the world over. The ECJ "didn't throw its up hands" , it heard a very well argued case that the person was abiding by the Schengen provisions and the ECJ agreed.

Hence those actions were lawful, the "intent" of a law is irrelevant in that regard.

By that I mean that those people making use of those provisions, were doing nothing wrong or illegal. After that , what you call it is irrelevant


dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Katiusha

I thought Croatia was joining Schengen in 2015... the following link says "by 2015", which could be meant as "in 2014", but I'm really hoping it'll be delayed until 2015 http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/member-countries/croatia/index_en.htm

No more recent news that I could find.

Given other countries accession delays to Schengen, I wouldn't worry, they'll do well to get in by end of 2015

bulgaria took 3.5 years after accession to get into Schengen
dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by chala

The Swiss have proven to be a resilient mob and apparently with one third of their business going to China they may give up the West for the East.

Well given they applied to join Schengen,so its remains to be seen. But I suspect it will hurt them more then a community of 350 million people. Ity was also a very narrow majority suggesting the issues may be revisited.

Looks like the French give no more than 90 days to NZ.
Visa for the Schengen Space, Overseas Carribean Territories (French Guyana, Martinica, Guadeloupe, St Marteens), Reunion Island and Mayotte. - La France en Australie



This could be tricky. Spend 90 days in Denmark and then move to France to be told that you may have to leave the Schengen region immediately.

I think you are interpretating that wrong. IN essence the Danish situation provides for a local visa of 90 days, Hence its not a Schengen visa. Therefore the situation would be like holding say a long term Danish visa, the Schengen clock starts when you leave Denmark and stalls when you return ( as you are not relying on a Schengen visa to stay in Denmark).

similar with say a Carte De Sejour.

dave

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The intent of a law, is one thing, but its actual implementation is often decided by the courts , this goes on the world over. The ECJ "didn't throw its up hands" , it heard a very well argued case that the person was abiding by the Schengen provisions and the ECJ agreed.

Hence those actions were lawful, the "intent" of a law is irrelevant in that regard.

By that I mean that those people making use of those provisions, were doing nothing wrong or illegal. After that , what you call it is irrelevant


dave

I think you are confusing my point. I am not suggesting people who took advantage of the loophole were doing something illegal.

By the letter of the law, they were legal. But the loophole goes against virtually everything published on the subject and takes a convoluted process to use. There is no way they used simple logic to take advantage of the loophole. I'm sure they knew darn well that they were not following the intent of the rules. This was not a situation where the intent changed, so purposely skirting the intent makes it a lot harder to gush with sympathy when the loophole gets closed.

While I'm sure the ECJ would never openly admit it, I'll give you 10-1 odds if you could get them to openly admit what they believed the intent of the law is, they would say the ruling doesn't match the intent. This was about lawyers twisting terminology to thier own purposes, not a well reasoned arguement.

[Barra]

Am I missing something - more and more countries are joining and applying to join the schengen but the limit is 90 days across all these countries so the time a tourist can spend in each country is effectively shrinking? (assuming they want to travel to all or most of those countries)

ie the less popular tourist destinations are effectively curtailing their tourist intake further as tourists are forced to ration their 90 days across more and more countries???

Europe just gets weirder and weirder the more I have to do with it!

[hoppy]

Couldn't someone just get two passports and every 90 days take a short flight to a non-schengen country and then swap passports on their return.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Couldn't someone just get two passports and every 90 days take a short flight to a non-schengen country and then swap passports on their return.

you're a big international spy book fan I see

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Barra

Am I missing something - more and more countries are joining and applying to join the schengen but the limit is 90 days across all these countries so the time a tourist can spend in each country is effectively shrinking? (assuming they want to travel to all or most of those countries)

ie the less popular tourist destinations are effectively curtailing their tourist intake further as tourists are forced to ration their 90 days across more and more countries???

Europe just gets weirder and weirder the more I have to do with it!

The number of people who can afford to take 90+ day vacations is a very small group. Most that can take that kind of time are very wealthy and can get around it (educational sabatical visas, long stay visas, buying property). They have often have lawyers and assistants who just make it happen.

Internal to the Schengen area it's actually a boon to travel:
- If you wanted to drive from Portugal to Poland, it was a minimum of 4 border crossings.
- If you wanted to fly from London to Paris for a quick weekend, you had to clear customs and imigration both ways.
- Not the end of the world but another little hassle to discourage travel.

The non-schengen cruising community makes up a small fraction of a percent of tourists. They will see no significant impact on tourism by opening it up to longer visas.