Schengen and bilateral agreements - includes Aust, NZ, Canada, US etc

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

We've discussed this many times over the years.

Aussies and Kiwis have the best ones, but Yanks have a number as well.

The problem for cruisers is that although one country may give you this benefit, other Schengen countries will count the time you stay legally in the treaty country as burning up your time for other Schengen countries So you end up stuck in that treaty country. So it's not really any dramatic alteration if you are cruising from country to country, but could be helpful if you are staying in one place, or go from one treaty country to another without passing through non-treaty Schengen countries.

So only actual non-Schengen countries like the UK or Turkey really let you build up fresh Schengen days.

I have missed these discussions completely .

The regulations are complex, but in some circumstances you can actually travel between two Schengen countries eg for Aussies Netherlands/France/Germany etc, followed by a Nordic country, giving you 6 months in the zone instead of 3. I consider that fairly dramatic .

Also, Aussies (and possibly other nations) could also apparently have essentially endless stays in the Netherlands or Germany if they fly out to any non Schengen country (eg the UK) just overnight before the 90 days is up.

The permutations are endless, but one limitation seems to be that you could not then not travel straight to another Schengen country afterwards (they would claim you had overstayed).

Aussies are not the only ones to benefit. I have not explored too many other countries, but this is from the Danish embassy in Canada:

Bilateral Visa Agreements


Personally, I would make sure I had contacted the relevant embassy just before travelling and had email confirmation I could wave at any officials who were not aware of the rules.

SWL

[Lemsteraak]

I heard that fines for Americans overstaying their automatic 90 day visa in the Euro Zone is quite steep.

That said, I talked to an American who said he had a work-around for that. He said that you fly out of the UK, and you would be OK because of a special agreement the US had with the UK for 180 days. Sounds like one of these bilateral agreements you are discussing.

I can see how 90 days can be very restrictive if you are cruising a boat in Europe. We are thinking of spending time on our boat in France next year. My concern is that in rural France there aren't that many places to store a boat.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Lemsteraak

I heard that fines for Americans overstaying their automatic 90 day visa in the Euro Zone is quite steep.

That said, I talked to an American who said he had a work-around for that. He said that you fly out of the UK, and you would be OK because of a special agreement the US had with the UK for 180 days. Sounds like one of these bilateral agreements you are discussing.

I can see how 90 days can be very restrictive if you are cruising a boat in Europe. We are thinking of spending time on our boat in France next year. My concern is that in rural France there aren't that many places to store a boat.

Although the UK is in the EU (for now) they have never been in the Schengen zone (same applies for Ireland, Croatia, Bulgaria, Cyprus and Romania).

Aussies (and apparently Yanks) can have 6 months in the UK for travel purposes without a visa, then fly out overnight and back in and have another 6 months. It seems this can be repeated indefinitely.

SWL

[Dockhead]

My boat has been based (except summers) in the UK for the last 10 years. UK authorities are very relaxed and have always given me leave to stay 6 months upon every entry. Since June, US citizens don't even go through passport control - you stand in the UK citizen line and use the automatic machines. Maybe Atipodeans too; IDK.

The UK is exceptionally cruiser-friendly.

Be careful, however, not to spend more than 6months in any year, or you become a tax resident.

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Although the UK is in the EU (for now) they have never been in the Schengen zone (same applies for Ireland, Croatia, Bulgaria, Cyprus and Romania).

Aussies (and apparently Yanks) can have 6 months in the UK for travel purposes without a visa, then fly out overnight and back in and have another 6 months. It seems this can be repeated indefinitely.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My boat has been based (except summers) in the UK for the last 10 years. UK authorities are very relaxed and have always given me leave to stay 6 months upon every entry. Since June, US citizens don't even go through passport control - you stand in the UK citizen line and use the automatic machines. Maybe Atipodeans too; IDK.

The UK is exceptionally cruiser-friendly.

From May 2019 Aussies have had this first class treatment too :
https://www.ausbt.com.au/australian-...passport-gates

“Australian travellers can now swipe their passports at the automated e-passport gates of all UK airports, bypassing the slow and snaking lines for the staffed immigration desks – a move which will be especially welcome when it comes to beating the morning queues at London's busy Heathrow hub.

Also on the fast-track list are visitors from New Zealand, Singapore, Japan, South Korea, Canada and the USA.”

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Be careful, however, not to spend more than 6months in any year, or you become a tax resident.

I didn’t know that applied in the UK. Is that a calendar year or financial year or any 12 months?

SWL

[Geoff54]

As Dockhead isn't about ... it's per tax year, June 6th thru June 5th. There are also a bunch of exceptions that can catch you out. Probably not an issue for most cruisers but as someone with UK connection, I need to be more careful.

The publication RDR3 is probably worth a read.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...nal_078500.pdf

Basically they replaced a simple set of rules with an arcane set so that they could tax a few more people.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Geoff54

As Dockhead isn't about ... it's per tax year, June 6th thru June 5th. There are also a bunch of exceptions that can catch you out. Probably not an issue for most cruisers but as someone with UK connection, I need to be more careful.

The publication RDR3 is probably worth a read.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...nal_078500.pdf

Basically they replaced a simple set of rules with an arcane set so that they could tax a few more people.

Thanks.
Another thing for cruisers to watch out for!

SWL
.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Thanks.
Another thing for cruisers to watch out for!

SWL
.

I've never heard of a country that didn't tax those who are present in the country more than half the year -- this is more or less universal AFAIK. This can be a big "gotcha" -- you're then liable to file a tax return and pay tax on your worldwide income, and if you don't file the tax return there can be severe penalties.



On top of that, it might be a visa violation, too -- "Leave to Enter for Six Months" very well in many countries specifically exclude staying long enough to become a tax resident.




Cruisers need to be careful to keep moving.




My own solution is having a residence permit in a Schengen country, but then I am careful to stay out of that country for more than 6 months a year. Due to the nature of my work and the fact that I'm cruising much of the time, this is not all that hard in my case, but for some it might be.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lemsteraak

I heard that fines for Americans overstaying their automatic 90 day visa in the Euro Zone is quite steep.

That said, I talked to an American who said he had a work-around for that. He said that you fly out of the UK, and you would be OK because of a special agreement the US had with the UK for 180 days. Sounds like one of these bilateral agreements you are discussing.

I can see how 90 days can be very restrictive if you are cruising a boat in Europe. We are thinking of spending time on our boat in France next year. My concern is that in rural France there aren't that many places to store a boat.

Don't confuse "Euro Zone" with Schengen or with the EU. These are all different concepts which include different countries.


As SWL said, UK is EU for the moment, but was never Schengen. Schengen is the border-free (for purposes of passport control) zone which includes most, but not all EU countries. Schengen has a uniform visa policy because once you cross the border into one Schengen country, you can theoretically pass freely from that country into any other Schengen country and move around freely. In reality it's not quite that simple, but let's leave that to one side.


UK has the same policy it always did - if a U.S. citizen seems respectable, he gets 6 months upon every entry. How that works with the new automatic gates, which don't stamp your passport, I don't know, but I presume that the rules are all the same.



So you can stay out of trouble by splitting your time between the UK and France, with just enough time in third countries to keep from being more than half a year in any country.


But France has a bilateral agreement with the U.S. -- see https://community.ricksteves.com/tra...-france-and-us. I have heard that not all French border guards are aware of this, and that it is a good idea to get a letter from the French embassy before you go.


Just keep in mind anytime you avail yourself of any bilateral agreement, that other Schengen countries don't recognize the bilateral agreements of other countries. So for example if you stay for 120 days continuously in France, you are perfectly legal in France, but if you cross the border into Germany you are automatically in violation there, even if you never spent a day in Germany before.

[karabil]

I have just emailed the Greek embassy in Canberra to see if the old agreement is still in force, and if not when it expired. I shall report back here on their reply.

[sher9016]

This may be of interest. It looks like the Schengen may end in January of 2021; see link below. Evidently you will then be able to register online for an $8 fee and stay for three years. Not sure what happens after three years, but the prospect of staying three years has us planning on returning in 2021. The etias visa is only for Americans so far but who knows the future.

https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-requirements/americans

[karabil]

Originally Posted by sher9016

This may be of interest. It looks like the Schengen may end in January of 2021; see link below. Evidently you will then be able to register online for an $8 fee and stay for three years. Not sure what happens after three years, but the prospect of staying three years has us planning on returning in 2021. The etias visa is only for Americans so far but who knows the future.

https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-requirements/americans

Fantastic, hope it does apply for the rest of us!

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by sher9016

This may be of interest. It looks like the Schengen may end in January of 2021; see link below. Evidently you will then be able to register online for an $8 fee and stay for three years. Not sure what happens after three years, but the prospect of staying three years has us planning on returning in 2021. The etias visa is only for Americans so far but who knows the future.

https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-requirements/americans

I could be wrong (this has been known to happen ), but I don’t think the document says that you can stay for three years.

Currently no visa is required for Americans visiting the Schengen area. The above document states a visa will be required, but you can apply online for a three year visa waiver. As I read it, it doesn’t actually say that you can stay for that long.

SWL

[letsgetsailing3]

I found this wording on the ETIAS site:


The ETIAS visa for Europe only permits travelers to remain in any of the Schengen-zone European countries for a maximum of 90 days in a 180-day period. Even if you are eligible for ETIAS but wish to stay for a longer time period than 90 days you will have to consult your embassy and apply for the appropriate visa for your desired stay.

[boatman61]

I think its the EU version of the ESTA which we have to apply for heading Stateside..
Valid for two years before shelling out another $14 but you still only get the 90 days max.. it just allows you to fly back and forth without hindrance for two years..
Just dont overstay.. as a DHS officer told me.. "We love deporting people"