Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-01-2016, 05:31   #76
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Satellite DSL for Cruisers in the Med

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiltym View Post
This is not correct. The antenna manufacturer you mention claims this in their marketing videos, but it is not true. LTE will work just fine with a single "normal" antenna and a single coax cable. Newer flavors of LTE (available in very select locations) can have increased speed using MiMo (dual antennas), but with a single antenna physical 50Mbps speeds are attainable, which seems quite adequate for most users.
Maybe in ideal conditions. As far as I understand, MIMO antennae make a big difference in performance in difficult conditions, which I think is highly relevant to us. See:

LTE MIMO theory and practice

"MIMO is a fundamental element of the LTE system design."

"Equipment manufacturers and network operators have embraced MIMO as an important element of their LTE and LTE-Advanced systems and it is generally listed alongside other LTE features such as carrier aggregation, Coordinated Multipoint (CoMP) transmission and enhanced small cells as a key enabler for the capacity, performance and cost targets required. 2◊2 MIMO is already widely deployed in LTE systems and there has been on-going speculation about the launch of 4◊2 MIMO by T-Mobile USA in 2013."

If this is wrong, I would be grateful for links to better information.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2016, 06:49   #77
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,940
Images: 1
Re: Satellite DSL for Cruisers in the Med

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Carsten, we use this:

Huawei B593 4G Router | Huawei LTE CPE B593 | B593u-12 & B593s-22 to Buy

Together with this external antenna:

XPOL-1 - Poynting


Note that LTE requires cross-polarized diversity antennae, so there are two coax cables.

I went around and around with this and came to the conclusion that there is not much point in trying to get the antenna up on the mast. At these frequencies, you have huge attenuation in any length of coax. Besides that, I've found that increasing the antenna height rarely makes much difference with LTE signals.

Choose a router with universal frequencies (there are several models, and one of them will do all U.S. and Caribbean as well as European and Asian frequencies).

Buy a local SIM card in every country, and Bob's your mother's brother.

With this set up, we get quite good service anywhere within about 10 or 15 miles from shore, anywhere in Europe. LTE service in Northern Europe is now just about seamless, and with realistic bandwidth exceeding what just a few years ago we would have considered a heavy-duty office connection. VOIP is now usable almost all the time, and even Skype video conferences often work ok.


Noelex, in the Aegean, uses a portable MiFi device (like this: Huawei E5878 4G Mobile WiFi Modem| Buy EE Kite Huawei Prime E5878s-32) which he puts in a waterproof bag and runs up a halyard, if he needs more antenna height. We also have one of those, but rarely needed to run it up a halyard. If you wanted ultimate range, you could package one of those with an external antenna in a waterproof plastic box, maybe with an external battery, and run THAT up a halyard. For the Carib, that might be worthwhile.


Has anyone noticed that marina WiFi is getting better? We are more and more often running into marina WiFi which actually works. I am planning to get my fixed-installed Ubiquity Bullet working before this summer's adventure.
Well - the dummy comes out in me. Looking at the link a number of questions arise (Hah!)

1- Product description says 3 different versions -" It has 3 versions which support different LTE bands. " Duh? so which version do I need?
2- Noted this - "This router is SIM free and fully factory unlocked and can work with all mobile providers." Forgive my complete dummyness, but how does this work if it is "SIM free? or does this just mean they send it without a SIM card?
3- If I plug my phone SIM card into this (assuming it does need a SIM card) will it work?
4- If I plug the phone card in - can I use my phone as a regular phone and run across this? or du I have to go via Skype?

I know most of you are rolling your eyes at my lack of comprehension of these simple things but while I'm not a Luddite (turn me loose on designing hydraulic systems) I've never really interested myself for "how" phones/computers etc work (I've had people to do that for me). As far as I'm concerned - they just have to work when I turn them on.

I guess I need these things explained like I'm a six year old (sigh).

Dockhead - can you take me by the hand and lead me through this?

In reality - just tell me exactly what to buy and where.
__________________

__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2016, 07:26   #78
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the U.S.
Boat: FP Tobago 35 [sold]
Posts: 402
Re: Satellite DSL for Cruisers in the Med

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Maybe in ideal conditions. As far as I understand, MIMO antennae make a big difference in performance in difficult conditions, which I think is highly relevant to us.
To clarify, you stated it was "required", and I wanted to clear that up, as it is not a requirement of LTE to have/use 2 antennas.

Certainly there are situations where MiMo can help with all kinds of communications, including LTE and WiFi. No argument there.

An external antenna, mounted at some elevation above the water, with "clean air" around it, is about as ideal as one is ever going to get for any kind antenna (this is the same reason WiFi can actually work for miles on the water, while on land, not so much). So I guess my view differs from the marine environment is a "difficult condition". MiMo (with antennas on different planes and orientations) is great inside buildings when the frequencies are bouncing off lots of obstacles or making their way through doorways in steel buildings. In an outside environment, this is not as big of an issue. MiMo is also great for faster communications, but this requires very good communication links. 80211ac WiFi can be very fast, but add some distance between your device and the router and see how quickly the speed drops. Same is true with LTE MiMo technology.

With MiMo, speeds can be increased, however we regularly see physical 50Mbps download rates with a single antenna (with MiMo it can go to ~75Mbps with Cat 3 (theoretical 100Mbps down)/4 (theoretical 150Mbps down LTE)), so it's pretty fast without MiMo already. And MiMo speeds will only be utilized with very strong signals with little interference, which are ideal conditions, that are not available in most locations unless you are sitting very close to the tower.

"The effectiveness of MIMO in a real network depends on a number of factors, including antenna separation on the transmitting and receiving devices, the level of scattering and multipath propagation in the radio path, the signal-to-noise ratio of received signals, and the speed of the mobile terminal. MIMO is at its most effective when there is significant multipath propagation, such as an urban environment where signals are scattered by buildings and other objects. In an open, rural location, where there is a strong line-of-sight transmission path between the transmitter and receiver, MIMO is less useful."

From the same article you quoted from.


Obviously there is no harm is using dual antennas, but my point was simply that it is not required. And very good speed and range will still happen with a single antenna.
__________________
Mark (It's Irie - Sailing Blog)
The Wirie AP+ and The Wirie pro - Long Range Marine WiFi and 2/3/4G Systems
kiltym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2016, 08:41   #79
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Satellite DSL for Cruisers in the Med

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiltym View Post
To clarify, you stated it was "required", and I wanted to clear that up, as it is not a requirement of LTE to have/use 2 antennas.

Certainly there are situations where MiMo can help with all kinds of communications, including LTE and WiFi. No argument there.

An external antenna, mounted at some elevation above the water, with "clean air" around it, is about as ideal as one is ever going to get for any kind antenna (this is the same reason WiFi can actually work for miles on the water, while on land, not so much). So I guess my view differs from the marine environment is a "difficult condition". MiMo (with antennas on different planes and orientations) is great inside buildings when the frequencies are bouncing off lots of obstacles or making their way through doorways in steel buildings. In an outside environment, this is not as big of an issue. MiMo is also great for faster communications, but this requires very good communication links. 80211ac WiFi can be very fast, but add some distance between your device and the router and see how quickly the speed drops. Same is true with LTE MiMo technology.

With MiMo, speeds can be increased, however we regularly see physical 50Mbps download rates with a single antenna (with MiMo it can go to ~75Mbps with Cat 3 (theoretical 100Mbps down)/4 (theoretical 150Mbps down LTE)), so it's pretty fast without MiMo already. And MiMo speeds will only be utilized with very strong signals with little interference, which are ideal conditions, that are not available in most locations unless you are sitting very close to the tower.

"The effectiveness of MIMO in a real network depends on a number of factors, including antenna separation on the transmitting and receiving devices, the level of scattering and multipath propagation in the radio path, the signal-to-noise ratio of received signals, and the speed of the mobile terminal. MIMO is at its most effective when there is significant multipath propagation, such as an urban environment where signals are scattered by buildings and other objects. In an open, rural location, where there is a strong line-of-sight transmission path between the transmitter and receiver, MIMO is less useful."

From the same article you quoted from.


Obviously there is no harm is using dual antennas, but my point was simply that it is not required. And very good speed and range will still happen with a single antenna.
OK, thanks. Very interesting information. Thanks for the correction.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2016, 08:45   #80
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Illinois
Boat: Beneteau 35 S 5
Posts: 11
Re: Satellite DSL for Cruisers in the Med

This thread has taken an unfortunate turn toward sanity. Will the OP please respond with some asinine comment. This useful information is for the birds.
__________________
If there were a perfect way, everything would be the same.
1234 Thunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-01-2016, 03:32   #81
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 8,561
Images: 14
Re: Satellite DSL for Cruisers in the Med

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Well - the dummy comes out in me.
Not at all and there are a few of us following this thread looking at were technology is going and how to make cost effective use of it. We already have a portable Huawei mifi on board which worked surprisingly well for us last year. Armed with a 6Gb sim which provided more than enough for the 90 days it was valid for. It appears to be cheaper to buy preloaded sim cards in the UK and throw them away rather than top them up. A pair of 90 day cards will see us through the sailing season. So the next question is can it be improved upon with higher speed, quality of signal etc?

Couple of questions for Dockhead, what is the voltage going into the B593? in other words if I cut the adaptor off can it be wired to a 12v system rather than faff around with the 240v plug.

How much difference does the external antenna make over the standard little antennas supplied with the router?

This is the other option I am looking at:

http://www.solwise.co.uk/4g-routers-...oduct_overview

Pete
__________________
Moody 31 - April Lass
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-01-2016, 06:58   #82
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,940
Images: 1
Re: Satellite DSL for Cruisers in the Med

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
?

Couple of questions for Dockhead, what is the voltage going into the B593? in other words if I cut the adaptor off can it be wired to a 12v system rather than faff around with the 240v plug.

How much difference does the external antenna make over the standard little antennas supplied with the router?



Pete
Good question. I'd rather run straight 12VDC than across my inverter (which I try to keep turned off as much as possible)
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31-01-2016, 07:21   #83
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Laboe - Germany
Posts: 443
Re: Satellite DSL for Cruisers in the Med

Quote:
what is the voltage going into the B593? in other words if I cut the adaptor off can it be wired to a 12v system rather than faff around with the 240v plug.
Seems not. If you Google "B593 router power supply" you will find replacement power supplies and the ones you find say 5V / 2A.

Regards,

Carsten
__________________
CarstenWL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-01-2016, 18:52   #84
Registered User
 
Rock-Head's Avatar

Join Date: May 2015
Location: St. Augustine, FL
Boat: 1978 Lancer 30 MkIV
Posts: 150
Re: Satellite DSL for Cruisers in the Med

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarstenWL View Post
Seems not. If you Google "B593 router power supply" you will find replacement power supplies and the ones you find say 5V / 2A.

Regards,

Carsten
12v/5v converter would be an easy answer there.

Something along these lines.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_2naf32ery6_e

Sent from my SM-N900V using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Rock-Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2016, 05:03   #85
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: Satellite DSL for Cruisers in the Med

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock-Head View Post
12v/5v converter would be an easy answer there.

Something along these lines.

Robot Check

Sent from my SM-N900V using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Indeed. With something like this:

DEOK DC-DC Buck Converter 13-60V to 12V/9V: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics


You could also power a phone charger, which is likewise 5v.

Or you could just use one of these:

Micro Auto Universal Dual USB Car Charger for iPhone 5 6 6S Mini Adapter 5V 2 1A | eBay

If you didn't want to hard wire it.

You would need to have a cable made up for it, or just splice it up yourself by chopping off the end of the AC power supply.



CORRECTION: This device uses 12v, not 5v power.

So a 12v (not 13.6v normal boat power supply) power supply is needed.

Something like this:

DC-DC Regulator Module : Input 13-17 VDC / Output 12VDC (4 Amp rate with removable heat sink)


Although I'm sure there are cheaper and simpler devices on the market.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruise, cruiser, satellite

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Satellite TV in the Med bobsadler Marine Electronics 7 13-08-2013 08:42
For Trade: Monohull - Med for No. Amer / No. Amer for Med Chuteman Classifieds Archive 0 21-06-2012 15:15
Hello Cruisers, and Wannabe Cruisers . . . Skipper2010 Meets & Greets 6 19-09-2011 13:16
Hello Cruisers at Cruisers Forum ! jazzsail Meets & Greets 15 25-11-2010 09:27
Any Cruisers with Kids in the Med ? marina.alex Europe & Mediterranean 0 06-07-2010 01:35



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:22.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.