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Old 24-03-2012, 18:07   #1
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Permission to Sail

Maybe this is the right forum to ask this question, it didn't work in the general forum
We are planninig to charter a boat in Greece in September
We know we need an ICC certificate, we all own our own boats and have a variety of different certificates and qualifications except an ICC which we plan on getting before our holiday
When the broker emailed back the charter contract, he stressed that we needed to take our sailing certificates to the Greek coast guard so that they can issue "a permission to sail". I can see this if your boat is not registered in Greece, but does this make sense if you do a bareboat charter from a Greek company?
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Old 24-03-2012, 20:29   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarehead
Maybe this is the right forum to ask this question, it didn't work in the general forum
We are planninig to charter a boat in Greece in September
We know we need an ICC certificate, we all own our own boats and have a variety of different certificates and qualifications except an ICC which we plan on getting before our holiday
When the broker emailed back the charter contract, he stressed that we needed to take our sailing certificates to the Greek coast guard so that they can issue "a permission to sail". I can see this if your boat is not registered in Greece, but does this make sense if you do a bareboat charter from a Greek company?
Are you sure the bareboats are Greek flagged? A permission to sail is only normally required for privately owned non-greek flagged boats, as far as i'm aware.
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Old 25-03-2012, 02:29   #3
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Re: Permission to Sail

"he stressed that we needed to take our sailing certificates to the Greek coast guard so that they can issue "a permission to sail"

IMHO, (never heard of an ICC required in Greece) there is a misunderstanding about the meaning of words (permission, permit, certificate, ICC...).
I think you need what the regulations and laws of YOUR country requires for sailing in YOUR country.
I don't imagine the Greek coast guards issue a "permission to sail", but I imagine they will ask you to pay somme taxes (among them in order to have the authorization for sailing in Greek waters).

Well, I hope my answer will be checked by US citizens having the experience you are looking for.

Have a nice sail trip in Greece !
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Old 25-03-2012, 02:48   #4
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Re: Permission to Sail

As far as I know the Greek authorities do not require any certificate,
however the charter companies require and accept almost any certificate.
So I think you would not have any problem.
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Old 25-03-2012, 11:59   #5
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Here you go... from http://www.sailingissues.com/formalities.html

"Yachts must carry their original registration document and ship's radio licence and one member of the crew requires a certificate to operate the radio/VHF. For EU boats, proof of VAT status is also required. The original insurance certificate and a Greek translation showing third party insurance with the amounts in figures. The minimum amounts are 293470 EURO liability for death or injury by sinking, collision or other cause for crew and third parties, 146753 EURO for damage, 88041 EURO for pollution. The skipper must have an International Certificate of Competence."

AND

"All Non-Greek Boats (over 7 metres):
There is a charge of 5.80 EURO per metre, payable at the first Port of Entry. This is called a "Circulation fee". If planning to stay in Greek waters 12 months or more, the same fee will buy you a permit called "Private Pleasure Yacht Permission for Stay and Maritime Traffic Document". It is valid for 3 years and is a single-sheet A4 document.
In 2002 an additional flat charge of 15 EURO was introduced for actually issuing these permits. This is called the Port Police charge. The penalty charge for re-entering Greece within 30 days has been withdrawn, although the "Circulation Fee" will still be due. At present there is no further news on what action the EU Court is planning regarding the refusal by the Greek Government to abandon this illegal tax.

All Boats:
The third charge is 30 EURO for a DEKPA - Private Pleasure Maritime Traffic Document. This is a 6-page A3 booklet, which must be presented to, and stamped by, the port authority on entry to, as well as exit from, each port visited. It is valid until all 50 boxes are stamped. This charge is applied to all yachts including Greek-flagged ones.

Non-EU Boats:
For non-EU registered boats after 90 days, there is a charge of 14.67 EURO per metre and they must obtain a formal "Transit Log". This charge is levied at the end of each 90 day period, and it appears that if the yacht leaves Greece before the end of 90 days the charge will not be made.

Possible other charges:
All public harbours now charge a mooring or anchoring fee based on the tonnage and length of the yacht, usually about 6 EURO for 11m. Boats from EU countries pay lower fees than those from non-EU countries, while Greek flagged boats pay even less. There is a basic fee charged at every port for completing the paperwork. A lower fee is charged for anchoring. In most ports these fees are charged even if stopping for provisions only, or even to buy fuel. Re-launching fee of 7.34 EURO. A fee is charged by customs for each fuel delivery."
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Old 25-03-2012, 13:35   #6
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Re: Permission to Sail

Hi !
Sailingissues.com is "a free and personal website"... Non an official one.

Just to say the ICC doesn't exist in most countries and it does not exist in Greece - as I know a Greek citizen cannot pass this exam (present to the exam) . Maybe some charter companies ask for it because it is an easy way to have the illusion to have an idea of the competencies of their clients. But the fact is if you are not an UK citizen you cannot present for the ICC in Europe (maybe in Gibraltar ?).
Each country has its one regulation.
As a French citizen I do not need to have any permit for sailing a sailing boat .
And I have been sailing for 40 years, among them 10 years in Greek waters... Never been asked for a permit.

There is a wellknown exception in the Med, it is Croatia, where a document is asked. A lot of people I know do it by themselves before sailing in Croatia. You can find beautiful one on the net. A former post on this subject gave an address to have a model !

(To tell the truth, I have a document to certify some "competencies" , I would say a "driving license", only because I needed it 20 years ago for a motor boat, but not the "ICC") .
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Old 25-03-2012, 16:42   #7
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Re: Permission to Sail

Quote:
But the fact is if you are not an UK citizen you cannot present for the ICC in Europe (maybe in Gibraltar ?).
Thats been changed. You can now as a foreign national, from a country that doesn't issue ICCs do an ICC in any irish or UK school. You can also do it through IYT in florida ( which is a /ISA/RYA school).


In greece the exact requirement is that you must have a document from a recognized authority in your country that shows you are competent. That has been interpreted by some, including port police to mean an ICC. But in fact if you are from a non ICC country then you can use your own local certificate ( such as an ASA one).


For your benefit I include some helpful tips

Leaving the dock is non mandatory; returning is!

If you are wondering where you need to go, try to turn the wheel towards the shore. Buildings will get bigger as you go.

On the contrary, if you turn the wheel on the opposite direction, they will probably get smaller.

Who ever told you that sailing is dangerous was wrong; what is dangerous is sinking.

If you are on board wishing you were on the shore you are doing something wrong – usually people wish to be on board rather on the shore.

The only time you can think that you have enough fuel is if you are on fire.

If you are traveling with a skipper, learn from his mistakes. You will have as much time as you want to commit your own mistakes.

Try to keep the number of departures from the dock equal to the number of arrivals

The probability of a sailing yacht’s arrival is inversely proportional to the speed; the higher the speed the lower the probability to dock safety

Making smooth return to the dock is easy if you follow the rules; the only problem is that no one really knows which these rules are.

If you see a huge boat coming against you and not changing direction , maybe you should decide to change yours.

If you keep the pointy end of the vessel going straight, you are probably doing something right

Looking around always helps you; you are more likely to miss things.

Good judgment is the result of experience; experience usually comes as result of good judgment.

If you are stepping up from a life raft you are good; the opposite is not something to brag about

If you see the skipper sweating, it’s not because it’s warm

According to reliable sources, if you see clouds gathering avoid taking pictures and try to berth somewhere safe – chances are there is something called a "storm" coming.

If your brain didn’t take you somewhere ten minutes ago, you shouldn’t take your sailing boat there

If you see from the cabin’s windows water going around the vessel, there is something terribly wrong outside

When sailing, you always have two bags with you. One is luck and the other is experience. If you bag with experience empties before the one with luck, your security deposit is most likely gone.
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Old 25-03-2012, 16:47   #8
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Re: Permission to Sail

I'm emailing the agent to find out where the boat is registered
There is a coarse through one of the colleges in Toronto for an ICC it's $600.00 for a weekend It is recognized through the RYA.. We've taken similar courses through the CYA which is good in north america, but apparently the Greeks that we've been dealing with do not recognize them
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Old 25-03-2012, 17:31   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarehead
I'm emailing the agent to find out where the boat is registered
There is a coarse through one of the colleges in Toronto for an ICC it's $600.00 for a weekend It is recognized through the RYA.. We've taken similar courses through the CYA which is good in north america, but apparently the Greeks that we've been dealing with do not recognize them
The registration of the boat is irrelevant.

The Greek authorities require

Rya day skipper or higher
iCC
Equivalent certificate of competence

I would have thought your Canadian competence cert would be enough.

There is no permission to sail in Greece


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Old 25-03-2012, 18:49   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The registration of the boat is irrelevant.

The Greek authorities require

Rya day skipper or higher
iCC
Equivalent certificate of competence

I would have thought your Canadian competence cert would be enough.

There is no permission to sail in Greece

Dave
Dave,

Spot on!

I got my ICC in Norway as part of an EU-wide initiative and nothing to do with the RYA. In Norway it was called a "Båtførersbevis" (or "Boat-driver's proof") and was a long weekend course with a practical and you have to be 16 or over - this will be a manditory requirement from 1 Jan 2013 onward. I found it to be actually much simpler than a day-skipper exam as it's aimed at sail and power together and covers basic/intermediate navigation, colregs and basic practical seamanship along with emergency procedures.

Whenever we've BB chartered anywhere in the med we've been asked for proof of sailing proficiency and a valid VHF/SRC - i'm assuming this is to satisfy their insurers. I've normally scanned and sent the Norwegian ICC along with Coastal Skipper/night watch cert and my "telenor" VHF/SRC cert and they've been more than happy with that.

Not once have I come across a "permission to sail" requirement in addition to this.

I think the OP's canadian cert will be more than good enough- and if investigated further will be found to be an ICC equivalent. Like I said before, the RYA's "International Certificate of Competance" brand awareness shouldn't be mistaken for a non-complience with an EU directive on ICCs which insurance companies have jumped all over - only 10 years ago they'd have been happy with a valid driving license!

Phil
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Old 28-03-2012, 05:43   #11
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The Canadian competency would not be adjudicated to be anywhere near an ICC, but that doesn't matter Greece will legally accept a national certification irrespective. The problem comes in that some have assumed certificate of competency means an ICC and nothing else.

The EU directive on ICCs only applied to inland waterways.

Dave
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