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Old 03-02-2013, 17:04   #1
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Over winter in Europe strategy

I'm starting to plan this years cruise. I have a 33' Ted Brewer cutter, steel, I keep in Lewisporte, Newfoundland.

My current thought is to do the West coast of Greenland, then head to Europe via either Iceland or Azores.

I will have six months off, total.

I am getting confused, real confused, about how to keep the boat in Europe over winter.

I want to avoid VAT if possible. There are also the 90 day visa issues due to Schengen treaty.

So, if I go through Iceland, or Azores, does my 90 days start then? Or do they deduct sea time?

More importantly, can I leave my boat in Ireland or Scotland, then fly home for six months without tax implications?

Are there other options?

Canadian/US dual citizen. Boat Canadian registry.

Many thanks.
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:30   #2
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pirate Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

The boat should be fine for 18 months so no worries on over wintering.. if Ireland, I recommend Cork... or Falmouth across the way, down a bit and left... lovely.
Sounds like a 'swing the lantern' yarn in the making...
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:52   #3
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Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

Leave your boat in Guernsey or Jersey, they're not in the EU and perfectly located for beginning your adventures the following year.

Guernsey is a wonderful island in the channel with lots of charm and nice people. VAT free.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:14   #4
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pirate Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Leave your boat in Guernsey or Jersey, they're not in the EU and perfectly located for beginning your adventures the following year.

Guernsey is a wonderful island in the channel with lots of charm and nice people. VAT free.
Or... go to Jersey... I'm sure DOJ has a spare 'Goatguard' for your boat...
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Old 03-02-2013, 19:50   #5
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Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

If in Ireland do I have to worry about VAT?

Or over staying my time?

I've tried reading up on this stuff and didn't see anything about Ireland.
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Old 03-02-2013, 21:13   #6
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Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

The 18 month rule applies to Ireland but not the Schengen rule.
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:39   #7
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Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
I've tried reading up on this stuff...
Try reading through the thread 8 Years in the Med?

There is a lot "noise" in that thread, but to me it seems that the users goboatingnow and mcarling are the ones to be trusted.

As I understand it from that Thread, you should be aware that it is not a 90 day in/90 day out scheme. It is 90 days within a 180 day period from a "first entry date". That means that if you can:
1) Do a short entry, for instance a weekend in Reyjavik in Iceland. (Establishing a first entry date)
2) Leave the Schengen area for roughly 3 months
3) Come back
Then you would have a total of 178 consecutive days (if the short entry was 2 days) in the Schengen area. This works by having two 180 day periods in which you arrange most of the 90 days of the first one to be in the end of the period and all of the 90 days of the second period to start right after.

I think that the people cruising the Mediteranean are more challenged by the Schengen visa problems than you will be if you stay in the Atlantic/North Sea/Baltic area. In the Med, if you need to leave the Schengen area, you only have Gibraltar, Croatia, Turkey and Israel to go except the politically unstable North African and middle eastern countries. On the other hand when travelling west of Gibraltar, you can stop your 90 day clock by going to the UK, Ireland, Channel Islands, Faeroe Islands, Saint Petersburg or the Kaliningrad Exclave of Russia.

A potential issue might be when going through Greenland and The Faeroe Islands. These are part of the Danish commonwealth, but are not in the Schengen area so they should not count towards your 90 days. I could fear that your passport might be stamped with a generic "Denmark" stamp. That would be a problem since officials would later assume you had entered the Schengen area in those periods. If, on the other hand, the stamp indicates that it was in Greenland or the Faeroe Islands or the city you were in I think that would solve the problem.
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Old 04-02-2013, 03:21   #8
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Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

Thanks all and especially Madsb, who really caught the thrust of my problem.

This was really helpful.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:17   #9
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Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

Your most awkward limitations are immigration controls (nothing to do with boat controls, which are customs matters). The Schengen zone counts as one country. Norway, UK, Republic of Ireland, the Bailiwick of Guernsey, and Jersey are other countries. You will usually be given permission to stay in any any of these for any 90 days in any 6 month period. So it's quite easy to arrange for yourself, personally, to stay (for instance) a month in Norway, then however long you are allowed in UK, then three months in France, a period in the Channel Isles, then back to UK, and so on. For detail about which countries are where and belong to which organisation, see Immigration and Customs rules for EU, Schengen and other countries | JimB Sail

Customs controls on the boat are easily handled. You can take your boat into the EU, and it can stay within the EU for up to 18 months (longer if you put it into "bond"). But it's very easy to nip across to Norway, or one of the Channel islands, and thus leave the EU. Prove this with a marina receipt for a couple of nights (or more), then re-import the boat into the EU for another 18 months.

For more stuff about documents and paperwork, see Documents, VAT and Waste Control | JimB Sail.

There's enormous variety in the cruising grounds of Europe. Don't let the paperwork put you off. It's not as bad as the paperwork needed for Europeans going to the US, then moving from state to state!
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:22   #10
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Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

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Your most awkward limitations are immigration controls (nothing to do with boat controls, which are customs matters). The Schengen zone counts as one country. Norway, UK, Republic of Ireland, the Bailiwick of Guernsey, and Jersey are other countries.
Snip ...
see Immigration and Customs rules for EU, Schengen and other countries | JimB Sail
I think you are a bit tired/confused or something because you are contradicting what it says on the site (Your own site?) you link to: Norway is in the Schengen area.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:24   #11
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Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

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Originally Posted by madsb View Post
As I understand it from that Thread, you should be aware that it is not a 90 day in/90 day out scheme. It is 90 days within a 180 day period from a "first entry date". That means that if you can:
1) Do a short entry, for instance a weekend in Reyjavik in Iceland. (Establishing a first entry date)
2) Leave the Schengen area for roughly 3 months
3) Come back
Then you would have a total of 178 consecutive days (if the short entry was 2 days) in the Schengen area. This works by having two 180 day periods in which you arrange most of the 90 days of the first one to be in the end of the period and all of the 90 days of the second period to start right after..
Not quite true. It's unfortunately any 90 days in any 6 month day period, so you can't link two consecutive periods.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:32   #12
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Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

How old is your boat? Are you sure the VAT applies? If you boat is over a certain age it might be VAT exempt.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:38   #13
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Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

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Not quite true. It's unfortunately any 90 days in any 6 month day period, so you can't link two consecutive periods.
I might be wrong, I'm not an expert. But reading the mentioned 8 Years in the Med? thread that is my understanding. Especially the post 8 Years in the Med? seems convincing to me, and summarizes my understanding quite well. I did miss one point, though: You have to be outside the Schengen Area on the 180th night since the first entry - but a weekend in London could solve that.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:39   #14
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pirate Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

Its my understanding that imports have no age limits... even if they were built in Europe... after 2 yrs abroad everythings VAT liable
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:11   #15
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Re: Over winter in Europe strategy

Madsb, yes, I've researched this matter thoroughly. Schengen law says any 90 days within a six month period, and entry permits (be they visas or stamps on entry) can't be renewed until 180 days after the first entry.

However, officials vary in the way they've been trained (or not!) to interpret the law. But an overstay, if detected, is a pain. A fine, followed by a ban on obtaining another visa for a period which ramps up depending how long they think you over-stayed.

There's no need to pay VAT if the boat is only to be used by the registered owner, as long as the owner isn't resident in the EU. It's allowed temporary import relief (TIR in EU speak) for 18 months . . .
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