New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Hartings

Where are the crew resident ? Ireland or USA ? If the former then they are EU resident and VAT is payable. If USA (or any other non-EU country) then the boat can stay in EU waters for up to 18 months and clock resets every time the boat leaves the EU eg Africa / Turkey etc etc

USA residents. Just picked up Irish citizenship to have a more meaningful and lengthy stay. Have yet to even visit Ireland. No assets in the EU. No work there. No ties. All ties in the States.

Can we have our cake and eat it too by putting the boat in as the American vessel it is, but later just not leave as non citizens are required to do after 90 days since we are citizens of the Schengen area?

Maybe reset our stay as citizens but leave the boat registered with customs as the normal "get it out in 18 months" status?

It's confusing.

[Rumpi]

Originally Posted by Hartings

I think the above is completely wrong.
1 Obtaining a visa does not make you resident in the country which issues the visa. Total baloney.
2. The UK leaves the EU in 2 weeks time. What are you talking about ?

1. You don't understand Schengen countries. All long stay national visas (meaning without 90/180 rule) are residency visas. There is no "long stay tourist visa".
2. The UK leaves and rejoins for the year. During the transition period a UK resident will not be able to buy a yacht without paying VAT. What happens next year is unknown, but the signs say UK subjects will come under the 90/180 rule unless EU residents.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Can we have our cake and eat it

I can only answer that by quoting Clint Eastwood:

"You've got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky"

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I can only answer that by quoting Clint Eastwood:

"You've got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky"

Damn. Really? This can be done by land no problem, but we can't do it with the boat?

This was the backup plan too as the RV/caravan to Europe trip is a bust due to the emissions sticker issues and the RV not meeting those.

It's sure not easy to visit.

[Pete7]

It's not you or the crew, but the boat with an EU residents. If you have an Irish passport you can wander around Europe for as long as you like. But the yacht? well an EU resident will be paying taxes on arrival, probably the Azores. Ball park 20% plus.


Pete

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Chotu

It's sure not easy to visit.

You want to try leaving, we have been at it for 3 years now

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Pete7

You want to try leaving, we have been at it for 3 years now

Ha ha ha ha! That's a good one!

Upon arrival we would not be in any sense, European. No passport other than the States. Although I'm in the foreign births register in Ireland, I never got my passport.

I was wondering if our status could be modified once inside the EU to stay for 18 months to match the boat.

I just need to do what those Russians in Monaco do with their boats. Become a billionaire and just pay the tax. Ha ha

[Hartings]

2) I don’t think we do ‘rejoin’ - but yes, we have a transition period. Re VAT according to RYA all UK resident owned boats in UK on 31/1/2020 will be deemed to be non-EU VAT paid. Temporary Admission will apply if visiting the EU. (in reality I don’t think anything is finalised yet)

[Rumpi]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Can we have our cake and eat it too by putting the boat in as the American vessel it is, but later just not leave as non citizens are required to do after 90 days since we are citizens of the Schengen area?

In theory yes you can. In practice "it's complicated".

1. Ireland is not a Schengen Area member. Irish citizens enjoy freedom of movement but do get to go trough immigration control so Schengen Area states know when you enter.
2. When you get a VAT control you must prove that you are not a EU resident. If your irish passport does not spell this out (irish citizen resident in the USA) your boat gets chained until you can prove it to the authorities satisfaction.
3. If you stay longer then 6 months in the EU you are in a grey area. Usually 181 days in one country makes you automaticly a resident. But you could spend this time in different countries and since residency is national business you are not technicly a resident anywhere in the EU. On the other hand you did stay in the EU longer than in the US. I have no ideea how this scenario can play out.

[Rumpi]

Originally Posted by Hartings

2) I don’t think we do ‘rejoin’ - but yes, we have a transition period. Re VAT according to RYA all UK resident owned boats in UK on 31/1/2020 will be deemed to be non-EU VAT paid. Temporary Admission will apply if visiting the EU. (in reality I don’t think anything is finalised yet)

If and when the WAB will be signed into law (because today it is not) and ratified by the EU, during the transition period british VAT is still recognised in the EU. The WAB reinstates all articles of EU membership, VAT is not excluded. Otherwise there could not be a Single Market between the UK and EU.
So yes, RYA is right today and until the "oven ready deal" will be ratified by both parties, because until that happens the default is "hard Brexit" in 10 days.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Rumpi

In theory yes you can. In practice "it's complicated".

1. Ireland is not a Schengen Area member. Irish citizens enjoy freedom of movement but do get to go trough immigration control so Schengen Area states know when you enter.
2. When you get a VAT control you must prove that you are not a EU resident. If your irish passport does not spell this out (irish citizen resident in the USA) your boat gets chained until you can prove it to the authorities satisfaction.
3. If you stay longer then 6 months in the EU you are in a grey area. Usually 181 days in one country makes you automaticly a resident. But you could spend this time in different countries and since residency is national business you are not technicly a resident anywhere in the EU. On the other hand you did stay in the EU longer than in the US. I have no ideea how this scenario can play out.

Yes...that is what I understand

One problem is the there is no country called Schengen

The 180 day rule, resident , implies that you will stay in one country

After 180 days You will become a resident of Spain, or Malta or...

Boats move, Schengen is large , you may never be in one country for 180 days

I have never recieved an answer for this scenario

[Rumpi]

Originally Posted by slug

Yes...that is what I understand

One problem is the there is no country called Schengen

I have never recieved an answer for this scenario

Please do not confuse the EU with the Schengen Area. UK, Ireland, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, and Cyprus are EU members but not Schengen. Residency and VAT are EU matters, visas are Schengen and third country business. A US citizen that goes from Italy to Croatia is out of Schengen and can spend as much time in Croatia as the Croatians will allow, but he will have not left the EU.

There will be no definitive answer to the problem of EU wide residency for tax purposes until we have a ECJ ruling on it.

[rxcsailnet]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Plans of retiring and slowly wandering aimlessly around Europe drinking wine and eating French cheese on crusty bread are slowly diminishing

My wife and I tried to do this starting in 1999, when we purchased a French farmhouse in Bordeaux (in the grapes). We retired from our US jobs in 2007 and moved to France. I sailed the boat (Jeanneau, US flagged) over in 2008. We both have good US govt government pensions and healthcare that covers us everywhere in the world. We tried to get long-term residency cards in France for 6 years, and eventually gave up. They did not want us.

Every time we went out on the boat, we were stopped by customs, who wanted to check all of our papers. The first boat we met at the sea buoy into Bordeaux was the Douane, and they wanted to know whether we wanted to pay the tax on the boat. The Irish spent 2 days searching for us, once they heard that there was an American boat in the area. The Spanish patrol boat dropped a small boat into the water so that they could board us inside a closed marina in Bilbao. The French used to send out airplanes to surveil us as we rounded FInnisterre, and they sent out a 150 ft patrol boat from Bouglogne-sur-mer, JUST TO CHECK OUR PAPERS, in the middle of la Manche.

We had to file French income tax returns each year, but did not pay anything because all of our income came from the US, and the US-French tax treaty says that Americans with US income only pay taxes on that income in the US. But we had to fight with them each year about this, and remain in our home for 6 weeks while they sorted it out, each time anew.

We just wanted to enjoy life in France (and the EU), and spend money. We did not want anything from any government in the EU other than a piece of paper that would allow us to travel without hassle. But they were determined to make our lives miserable. After being refused boarding to a flight in the US back to France, because the French could not issue a "temporary residency card" to us in 8 months, we gave up, sold the house, and returned to the USA.

And we never paid any VAT or import duty on the boat. It was part of our "household goods" when we moved to France, and therefor exempt from VAT and import duties. Our pickup truck (7 years old, and worth only about $10K), however, got the full treatment, because it was a "truck", and not a personal vehicle. $2200 in tax.

It can be very hard to live somewhere when you don't have the right to do so.

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by rxcsailnet

My wife and I tried to do this starting in 1999, when we purchased a French farmhouse in Bordeaux (in the grapes). We retired from our US jobs in 2007 and moved to France. I sailed the boat (Jeanneau, US flagged) over in 2008. We both have good US govt government pensions and healthcare that covers us everywhere in the world. We tried to get long-term residency cards in France for 6 years, and eventually gave up. They did not want us.

Every time we went out on the boat, we were stopped by customs, who wanted to check all of our papers. The first boat we met at the sea buoy into Bordeaux was the Douane, and they wanted to know whether we wanted to pay the tax on the boat. The Irish spent 2 days searching for us, once they heard that there was an American boat in the area. The Spanish patrol boat dropped a small boat into the water so that they could board us inside a closed marina in Bilbao. The French used to send out airplanes to surveil us as we rounded FInnisterre, and they sent out a 150 ft patrol boat from Bouglogne-sur-mer, JUST TO CHECK OUR PAPERS, in the middle of la Manche.

We had to file French income tax returns each year, but did not pay anything because all of our income came from the US, and the US-French tax treaty says that Americans with US income only pay taxes on that income in the US. But we had to fight with them each year about this, and remain in our home for 6 weeks while they sorted it out, each time anew.

We just wanted to enjoy life in France (and the EU), and spend money. We did not want anything from any government in the EU other than a piece of paper that would allow us to travel without hassle. But they were determined to make our lives miserable. After being refused boarding to a flight in the US back to France, because the French could not issue a "temporary residency card" to us in 8 months, we gave up, sold the house, and returned to the USA.

And we never paid any VAT or import duty on the boat. It was part of our "household goods" when we moved to France, and therefor exempt from VAT and import duties. Our pickup truck (7 years old, and worth only about $10K), however, got the full treatment, because it was a "truck", and not a personal vehicle. $2200 in tax.

It can be very hard to live somewhere when you don't have the right to do so.

What a sad story !

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Hartings

What a sad story !

Indeed, makes you wonder if they only want young people who will be paying taxes.

France is quite a bit more state controlled than the UK.

Pete