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Old 10-08-2012, 00:29   #16
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

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Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
It's been 4 years since I have been there, so others will be more current. I did not encounter difficulties with black water except in Turkey. They are very aggressive about enforcement there, usually by helicopter. If you are pumping out something that is not clear you are risking serious trouble. That said, once out of harbor and into the open sea it is acceptable to pump out toilets and holding tanks. I never saw a pump-out station, although that might have changed by now. With or without treatment, I would say a holding tank is necessary for using toilets in harbor. For long stays this won't work, however.

Greg
Do not believe the rumor about poopy copters. It is a rumor started by some old farts with too much time on their hands. We were in Turkey a few months in 2011 and are in Turkey now.

That said, they do take pump outs seriously and have a record keeping system on your pump outs. They make an effort to determine how many pump outs you should be required to make for a certain period of time. Although I have "heard" of fines, I have never met anyone who was fined. I did discuss this with an agent/friend who said that one boat he handled was refused exit from Turkey because he had been here almost a year and had not pumped out once. The authorities required him to go to a pump out station before they gave him exit papers.

Rules like this are generally randomly enforced and some authority-figures are aggressive. It is Russian Roulette, you never know when you have chambered a round.

Hope this helps,

Bill
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Old 10-08-2012, 00:36   #17
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

The situation has changed, a lot. But the chopper thing is not just a rumor, nor is aggressive enforcement based on video from a chopper. I lived aboard in Marmaris for 4 years (2002-2006) and I can assure you that these things really happened. I observed the choppers hovering over the marinas. I met folks who were being prosecuted based on those videos. It was very, very real.

Greg
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Old 10-08-2012, 00:54   #18
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

I know that the thread is for turkey, but, my question really relates to the Med. in general.
Regards,
John
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:00   #19
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

Again, a bit dated, but I never encountered difficulties elsewhere in the Med. Regardless, it is really bad form to pump out a head into clear water in any harbor - holding tanks really should be fitted.

Greg
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:48   #20
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

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Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
The situation has changed, a lot. But the chopper thing is not just a rumor, nor is aggressive enforcement based on video from a chopper. I lived aboard in Marmaris for 4 years (2002-2006) and I can assure you that these things really happened. I observed the choppers hovering over the marinas. I met folks who were being prosecuted based on those videos. It was very, very real.

Greg
Greg,

I will ask you the same question that I have asked all of those supporting and/or spreading this rumor. Specifically, who, what, when and where?

So far no one has answered.

I have spoken to people who have access to the data created if someone would have been video-taped. Nada, nothing.

I did not say that choppers have not hovered near moored boats. And if it were up to me, beheading is in order for someone who pumps crap into a marina.

Bill
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Old 12-08-2012, 17:24   #21
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

IIRC the when was 2006. The where was Marmaris area, the boat involved was at anchor at the time, and they claimed the discharge was from the galley sink. They had been detected and videotaped by a chopper, and a boat came out to inspect but failed to collect a water sample. The American couple was ordered into Netsel while it was being dealt with, and their passports taken. It created a huge brouhaha with the cruisers, who had large meetings with the new management of Netsel to show concern for the heavyhandedness. Many of us met the couple, but I do not remember their names or the name of the boat. In the end the couple sneaked out of Netsel and went on to the next country, where they expected to get their passports replaced. Needless to say the officials were pretty unhappy about that, and for weeks afterward the chopper flights became a regular feature.

There were a lot of people there at the time so corroborating shouldn't be that difficult. That said, Netsel management was very uncomfortable being put in the middle, and frankly responded poorly to the cruisers' concerns, so I doubt they would welcome having the incident dragged up again. The flight of the accused weakened their case with many present, rumors and doubts spread, and the cruising community was happy to let the matter drop quickly.

I can understand your desire to wade through the rumors and get to the truth. Believe me, this is the truth. It happened. But it was not an incident that anyone wanted to talk about afterwards.

Greg
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Old 12-08-2012, 23:14   #22
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

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Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
IIRC the when was 2006. The where was Marmaris area, the boat involved was at anchor at the time, and they claimed the discharge was from the galley sink. They had been detected and videotaped by a chopper, and a boat came out to inspect but failed to collect a water sample....
Greg
Greg,

In 2006, I have no doubt that you were told what you say you were told. And, at best, you have to agree that it is hearsay. I have flown in a helicopter. I cannot imagine seeing a discharge from a galley sink from a helicopter. I also know that the equipment to videotape a discharge at a great distance is not available to the Turkey Coast Guard...and if they were close enough to videotape it with what they have, the wash from the helicopter would mask anything in the water. From my experience, what a person says when they have a problem with authorities is different than fact.

Bear with me for a moment. Let's say that someone's boat was impounded, their passports taken, etc. Let's also say that you have no idea as to what this suspected and potential criminal has done. He tells you the above story. You share the story with someone, who shares the story with someone else. Each person embellishing the story, because that is the nature of people. Now every time you and your friends see a helicopter flying over, it is a Poopy Copter looking for discharges.

I make the argument that this scenario is precisely what happened because I have seen these cruiser rumors and myths go out-of-control. Just recently I quashed a cruiser rumor about 16 boats being fined $9,000TL each in Yacht Marina. There was not one iota of truth to that rumor. In other words, no boats, no fine and no citations at Yacht Marine.

Eventually, I will find the truth about what you were told. If I had more specific information as to who and when, it would make things easier.

It is amusing to me how these things have a life of their own. For instance, you were told this in 2006. You were here then. That is 6 years ago and you appear to be in Portland OR now...see how things live for ever...

Thanks for the information. I will continue to pursue this until I have verifiable facts. I am driven because cruiser rumors and myths can cause some newbies to change their plans and miss some wonderful places.

Bill
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Old 13-08-2012, 01:34   #23
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

Bill - I find your reply condescending. Your assumption that somehow I didn't really know what happened is really arrogant. And please note: this is the first time I have ever flamed anyone, so I consider this pretty extreme.

I met the folks that it happened to, and heard their story. The top manager at Netsel met with the cruisers (I was present) after talking to the authorities, and informed us of the process. Hearsay? We are not in a court of law here. This did happen. Of course if you read carefully you would have picked up that the cruising community started to doubt the veracity of the cruisers - the explanation of a sink discharge was pretty thin. And yes, a plume from a head is quite visible at the altitude the choppers were flying - a Brit chopper pilot on one boat was pretty upset at them hovering so low over the marina, as an engine problem would have dropped them on top of us.

The point is that this was a very public situation, with people in the know sharing what was happening. The Netsel management was passing on the facts in order to defuse the situation - a very uneven performance to say the least, but full credit for the effort.

I am pleased to here that things have changed. I liked Turkey a lot. But pretending these things didn't happen is just wishful thinking.

Greg
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Old 13-08-2012, 08:05   #24
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

"I'm not going to get too excited about this, as the international regulations are such that Turkey cannot legally enforce their grey-water regulation on foreign flagged vessels.

What they can (and do) regulate and control is where grey water may or may not be discharged, but they cannot require grey water tanks to be installed. The IMO and 1948 Conventions, under which jurisdiction Turkey falls, is quite explicit on this matter.
"

Hi Zanshin,

I am afraid yr above statement is not correct.. Article 2 of the regulation 2011/2 on August 5, 2011 of the Ministry of Environment reads as follows:


"Scope:this regulation covers all of the ships (with the exception of ships falling under the regulation 2011/6) regardless their nationalities that are potential to generate wastes like, kitchen, toilet, etc. , fishermen shelters and marinas that are equiped with waste water pump out facilities and the principles that are to be applied under the context of blue card scheme."

Pls note that in Turkey everything that is longer than 5 meter and driven with engine/s is called ship.. The regulation 2011/6 above mentioned is covering the ships above 150 gross tons.

Article 3 is saying that this regulation has been prepared in accordance with the appendix I, IV and V of the MARPOL 73/78 conventions and the Turkish Enviromental Protection law no 2872.


The article 4.1 states that this scheme is applicable in the province of Muğla which covers all the cost line from Bodrum to Fethiye.

Article 5.4 says that all boats are subject to present their blue card for getting a cruising permit (transit log)

In the distribution list of the regulation, coast guard authorities as well are included. (so, I assume they are supposed to take necessary action when needed)

Pls also note that I am not defending by any means this regulation and just letting you what the regulation says. We long discussed this issue with authorities as marina, charter operators, sailing community, but couldn't manage to amend it. Most of the authorities (port managers, cost guard, etc) agree on our objections and are reluctant to impose these rules on sailing, particularly foreign sailing boats. But I know that they are more keen on daily cruising boats that can take up to 200 passangers and cruising in coastal waters which makes more sense.
They also realize that it is physically impossible to install a grey water tank in most of the dsailing boats. The pump out stations are not yet ready in most of the marinas. So, I found this regulation very premature and not applicable. My suggestion for cruising fellows in this area would be to pay 20 TL or so to get a blue card and show it when asked. That would keep you out of trouble in 99 % of the cases..

Talking about helicopters, we are sitting just in beetween Netsel and Yat marin and see quite a bit of helicopters , sometimes flying scaringly low..Behind Yat Marin there is a the largest Navy base + plenty of fire fighting helicopters around but I'd doubted that they fly to check the pollution from the sailing boats..

Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 13-08-2012, 08:42   #25
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

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Bill - I find your reply condescending. Your assumption that somehow I didn't really know what happened is really arrogant. And please note: this is the first time I have ever flamed anyone, so I consider this pretty extreme. Greg
Greg,

I believe that you are stating the facts as you know them, and I appreciate you taking the time to add to the story.

Let me assure you that there are no Poopy Copters in Turkey today. I am trying to verify if there were ever Poopy Copters here. I have flown in helicopters and I am very, very, very familiar with surveillance video capabilities because I was the president of one of the worlds first remote video surveillance companies. I have interviewed suspects and criminals and I know how stories get twisted.

My purpose is to paint a real picture for those who have not been to this wonderful place and to debunk rumors and exaggerations. I truly like Turkey and the people of Turkey. There are some people in the cruising community that have too much time on their hands and love to tell stories that new-comers have not heard. You are not one of those people, but I am sure you know what I am talking about.

Bill
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Old 19-08-2012, 01:24   #26
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

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<snip>

My purpose is to paint a real picture for those who have not been to this wonderful place and to debunk rumors and exaggerations.

Bill
Bill,

I'm still regularly in contact with charter company mates in Turkey (once ran such a company there in the past). The story as I know it from them at the moment is on Turkey Facts and Regulations | JimB Sail

If you learn any more, I'd be most interested to add your findings!

JimB
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Old 16-09-2012, 02:23   #27
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Re: New Rules in Turkey

Having lived, on land, in Turkey for many years I have a very jaded view about regulations in general. Pilot areas and local anomalies, to national regulations, tend to come and go and cause alarm among the communities affected. The holding tank issue is a good example. As far as I can determine the statutory requirement is for Turkish flagged boats (black water) and is not statutory for foreign flagged vessels.
Having said that pumping out of black or grey water in harbour or marina is very much frowned on and can, in some cases, lead to fines and ejection from the mooring.

As mentioned, by another contributor, a large problem is the Turkish flagged Gullets which flout their own laws in an amazingly cavalier manner!

Bottom line; wait and see. (In the past laws have been passed and then rescinded when the legislature realise how impractical the law is!)
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