Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

[terra57]

This is a long thread but I am in the Med now for three years. At first we went out of our way to be legal and, in fact, no one gives a crap. We are careful to check our boat out of the EU every 18 months. We have run down to Morocco twice. There are plenty of non Schengen European countries as well as north Africa to check out. Just be sure to have a marina receipt and stamped passports to prove your boat left.

The 6 month/ country rule to avoid EU taxation is not a problem. You place your boat in bond after 180 days and take it out of bond when you leave the country or your time out expires. We have not been charged for the bond.

You personal time limit 90 out of 180 days is not much of a problem unless you get in trouble and bring attention to yourself. If anybody looks at your passport they are not, most likely, going to check your 90 days. So what? If they kick you out you get in your boat and go. Our experience is that they all like our money and are unlikely to let our 90 days become a problem.

Overall Europe likes boaters. They know we spend money. It would appear the only reason to check your boats status is to collect the big tax euros! The country that collects gets to keep part of it! In the Med you will be cruising a bunch of countries that are broke so don't forget it.

The reality is keep your boat legal and don't worry about your passport too much.

I might add it is a pleasure to cruise in the civilized world and it is not expensive to be in the Med. There are an incredible array of beautiful anchorages and few places where marinas are expensive outside of July/August. Last year we had to go in a marina for a month in high season, $550 USD. We are in San Tropez now and our boat, 46 foot, would be under $100 a night in late July! Of course we are chilling in the bay next door. Much cooler and no tourists! If the wind shifts I can sail 5 miles and find protection from the other direction.

[svBeBe]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

I guess the logic on being at sea is there is a gap between stamps hence only the stamped period is counted as in Europe.

Frank

A gap between what stamps? Passport stamps? Vessel inbound/outbound clearances? I know several American who have encountered great difficulty (and usually impossibility) or having their passports stamped as they have moved from one EU country to another via their yachts. For example, getting stamped out of Italy en route to France; or then managing to actually get stamped into France, for that matter.

Besides, being in the Med going from one EU country to another would normally place that vessel within the recognized waters of EU countries, so how would being 'at sea' place a person outside of the EU for Schengen Treaty visa time limit purposes?

Judy

[Lagoon4us]

If you clear Greece then 10 days later you enter Italy then that ten days transit time is not attributable to any particular country? Passports don't relate necessarily to the boat as evidence that the boat was in a Shengen country? Only my thoughts

[Yofy]

The rule is 90 days in followed by 90 days out. Flying to Croatia or Israel or any other non-Schengen country for a weekend solves nothing because it will not renew the 90-day limit.

Yes Judy you are absolutely correct. I wrote that thinking about the old days when we used to take the ferry over to Greece in order to renew our Turkish visas. But, as you've explained, within the schengen countries this won't work. I tried to correct my post but couldn't find the edit button??
Robyn

[svBeBe]

Originally Posted by Yofy

Yes Judy you are absolutely correct. I wrote that thinking about the old days when we used to take the ferry over to Greece in order to renew our Turkish visas. But, as you've explained, within the schengen countries this won't work. I tried to correct my post but couldn't find the edit button??
Robyn

CF has this set up so that you cannot edit your post after 20 minutes. Any correction you wish to make after that time expires requires a new posting. Wish there was a way to correct older postings; it would make some of these long threads easier to read and the information provided easier to identify instead of having to read through page after page to see if additional info or corrections were added later.

Anyway, this has been one of the more enlightening threads and has provided lots of info to remember as we cruise the Med westward. Thanks to everyone who has posted. And also thanks for not turning this into another political rant.

Judy

[AussieWayne]

Note that certain EU countries give Australia and NZ citizens certain long stay concessions based on various reciprocal agreements.



Dave this is possibly of interest to me and maybe others as well, do you have any further information on this or maybe a direction for me to try and track down this information.
I am settling on a boat in Northern Cyprus which I understand is considered Turkish and as such not part of the EU but I plan to cruise the Med for the next 2-3 years.
Kind regards
Wayne

[Lexxy]

Report from a Schengen ignorer:

I read posts here and other locations until I was dizzy trying to understand what we were to do cruising around the Med. We wanted to do the right thing. After spending the winter in Sicily and getting to know folks who have cruised for years ignoring the Schengen fiasco we decided to just hope for the best. We are in Gibraltar so I guess we made it ok. We never checked into Italy or Spain...just hoisted the flag and pretended like we belonged. We even talked to marinas ahead of time to see if there would be a problem but they never care. We were truthful with them saying we didn't want to risk examination. They just want the business. We flew in and out of Italy twice and it wasn't until coming back from England that they insisted on stamping our passport. We just asked them not to during all the other times. We did carefully check in and out of Greece and we asked if we needed any check out papers for entering Gibraltar but they said no.

It boils down to more people talking about it online than here. We know there have been a few folks fined. But there are loads of people sliding thru! We would like to abide by the rules but when we tried to check into Italy, they said not to worry and they waved us in. We did get the required "constitudo" but nobody ever wanted to bother with it. The marina police checked our documents and said not to worry during our winter stay in sicily. We figured that if questioned we would say we'd been in Israel and did not get stamped. Never had to...and we had been there so it's just a stretch.

I am relieved now it's past. We haven't decided whether to check in or out of the atlantic islands or even where we will go after Morocco. We understand that they are fine with it.

Europe is an amazing place to have so many hoops to jump thru and most ignore them. Everywhere in the world is better cruising anyway. And it's way overpriced.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by AussieWayne

Note that certain EU countries give Australia and NZ citizens certain long stay concessions based on various reciprocal agreements.

Dave this is possibly of interest to me and maybe others as well, do you have any further information on this or maybe a direction for me to try and track down this information.
I am settling on a boat in Northern Cyprus which I understand is considered Turkish and as such not part of the EU but I plan to cruise the Med for the next 2-3 years.
Kind regards
Wayne

See your embassy they'll know

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lexxy

Report from a Schengen ignorer:



I am relieved now it's past. We haven't decided whether to check in or out of the atlantic islands or even where we will go after Morocco. We understand that they are fine with it.

Europe is an amazing place to have so many hoops to jump thru and most ignore them. Everywhere in the world is better cruising anyway. And it's way overpriced.

While what you say on your long post is generally true. I couldn't possibly agree with your last line.

The reality on the ground is ( a) vat inspections are very very rare. Hence the TIR rules are almost irrelevant. Nobody really cares how long foreigners keep their boats there.

Unlike the US the Europe is a nautical place, boats are part of the fabric. Passport checks are few and far between and the oppressive security and paper stamping of airports is nowhere to be seen.

Of course if you decide in many countries not to bother with formal checking and out that's fine. You'll most likely never be checked, of course when it goes wrong......

The other thing is we all live in Europe with excessive rules and hence we ignore a few of them from time to time. It's just a thing!

In practice as a non European on a boat, really Schengen isn't much of a problem. Note that once you get an entry stamp into a schengen area, there is no need to check in and out of each country individually ( except Greece) you then get an exit stamp on leaving the schengen area. I agree getting an exit stamp is difficult.


Dave

[goboatingnow]

[QUOTE="terra57"]This is .....

The 6 month/ country rule to avoid EU taxation is not a problem. You place your boat in bond after 180 days and take it out of bond when you leave the country or your time out expires. We have not been charged for the bond.

...[QUOTE]

Of course this is nonsense advice. as long as you are not a EU tax resident you never need to bond your boat. There is no 180 day rule for boats. It's 18 months extended to 24. In practice as long as you aren't a resident you can keep it there forever. There is never a requirement to "bond" a boat.

Dave

[Kiwis]

went through the Med in 2011, checked into EU in Greece then didnt do any check ins again until Gibraltar. Once in Eu you dont need to check in anywhere else. You can if you wish but mostly the authorities dont want to know. Tried checking in again in Sardinia with friend who had come from a non Eu country it was a hassle and they didnt want to know us as we were already checked into EU. Just dont go near the coast guard in Italy as they like to check you ....there is also a fee not sure what. Canaries dont want to know about Schengen. Check out from La Gomera in the Canaries was easy and just a stamp on a piece of paper. Need some sort of check out for Cape Verdes although in our case they did not check our clearance papers from Canaries.
We stopped lots of places for days in some cases, no one came to check us. Proper check in in Gibraltar though.

Recommend a stop in Rabat, Morocco. Just make sure you know the tide and swell conditions. Call the marina and they will guide you in. DONT go in by self.

The only problem with schengen time would be if you plan to fly out of the EU. The check is more careful at airports.

[jckb]

I see from thread comments that many cruisers visiting Europe still do not differentiate between rules for boats, and rules for people.

People first.

The Schengen group of 17 European countries allows free movement of people within those countries. There is no border control/passport checking when you go from one country to another of the 17. When first entering one of the countries, visitors (if they do not have EU passports or ID) should obtain a passport stamp (vistor's visa, or permission) which tells them how long they may stay within the group - typically 90 days out of any 180.

It is easy for foreign boats to enter the Schengen group and "forget" to obtain a visa. Once in the group, there are no significant passport checks.

Your problems, if any, will arise if there is any form of incident which means your ID will be checked. Leaving the country by "approved means of transport" (ie; from an airport or through a ferry port) is one example. And any form of incident where police may be involved is another. At that stage, if you're leaving without having entered (ie, you are an illegal immigrant), or if you have an expired visa, you will be fined, and perhaps held until you pay. Depending on the efficency of the system, you may then be denied further entry to any Schengen countries for a period of time.

Now non-VAT paid boats.

These enjoy a great freedom to roam the 27 EU countries, as long as they are not used by EU passport holders. They are allowed up to 18 months continuously within the EU before VAT should be paid. A single provable exit from the EU, and a re-entry, starts another 18 months.

Greece (unlike most other EU countries) requires all boats over 7 metres (10m concession for EU boats) to carry Greek cruising papers. I'm not aware of any other EU countries which require this.

Other Countries

Montenegro, Albania, Croatia, Turkey, the Levant, North Africa - all of these have total border control and permissions for both boat and people. And many have harbour to harbour control as well.

Europe is a darn sight simpler than the routines going from State to State in other parts of the world. Hopping through the Caribbean!

Hope that helps. It's all on my web site - subject to few minor corrections pointed out by GoBoatingNow - and many thanks for those!

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by jckb

When first entering one of the countries, visitors (if they do not have EU passports or ID) should obtain a passport stamp (vistor's visa, or permission) which tells them how long they may stay within the group - typically 90 days out of any 180.

It is easy for foreign boats to enter the Schengen group and "forget" to obtain a visa. Once in the group, there are no significant passport checks.

Your problems, if any, will arise if there is any form of incident which means your ID will be checked. Leaving the country by "approved means of transport" (ie; from an airport or through a ferry port) is one example.

This may be the Schengen theory, but it isn't the reality. I spent 4 years around the Med, flew in and out half a dozen times, sometimes after over 12 months in the Schengen area, and the only passport stamp I have is from Greece. Flying into and out of Paris, Rome, Madrid, Lanzerote, and Palermo, all they do was look at my passport, smile, and hand it back.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

This may be the Schengen theory, but it isn't the reality. I spent 4 years around the Med, flew in and out half a dozen times, sometimes after over 12 months in the Schengen area, and the only passport stamp I have is from Greece. Flying into and out of Paris, Rome, Madrid, Lanzerote, and Palermo, all they do was look at my passport, smile, and hand it back.

You don't mention what passport you have. Citizens from some countries have privileged access to several Schengen and EU states. Try doing this with a Russian passport though . . . or any of a long list of others . . .

JimB

[PamlicoTraveler]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

This may be the Schengen theory, but it isn't the reality. I spent 4 years around the Med, flew in and out half a dozen times, sometimes after over 12 months in the Schengen area, and the only passport stamp I have is from Greece. Flying into and out of Paris, Rome, Madrid, Lanzerote, and Palermo, all they do was look at my passport, smile, and hand it back.

This is what I keep hearing and assume to be true. I don't think they are too eager to boot someone cruising the area and spending money.

Still, it would be nice to have the written rules on your side rather than relying in general experiences. I am afraid to winter within the Schengen area for this very reason.