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Old 14-07-2012, 05:52   #61
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
No you cannot become non resident everywhere.
Not so.

As UK domiciled I was non resident in any country for 5 years cruising and paid no tax on any earnings arising outside the UK. Though should have paid tax in the country where the work was carried out, just kept forgetting And it was next to nothing anyway.

Let me google that for you
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Old 14-07-2012, 05:54   #62
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Originally Posted by LifePart2
"It's all nuts" - that was my political editorial comment. In my view all these passports and border controls should all be scrapped anyway. Countries seem to manage quite well with people living in different cities (even though the cities charge different local taxes", and the EU manages quite well without border controls (though the Euro is a mess for other reasons), so why do we need borders at all? But I will not reply to any replies to this as I don't want to start a political discussion. Just my personal views.

Dave, of course it is more complex, in complex situations. But the bones of it are there. We are just talking about people who are touring Europe in their boats.

And, yes, I believe you can be non-resident everywhere. If it takes three years to become non-resident, what happens after world touring for more than three years if, also, you cut ties with any 'home' country and all the other things on which they base their residency rules. It can be done, but is complicated. But, again, I am not going to be drawn into a discussion on it, as this is not the place for that.
There is no borders between EU countries, and this greatly benefits cruisers. What causes the problem is that there isn't a tax union, ie a full fiscal union ,that's why all these residency rules apply. However I suspect that the Eurozone will rapidly progress to a full fiscal union within three years and that will remove all this tax residency issues.

As to non resident everywhere, I know several EU countries will only release you from their tax residency when you can show you are a tax resident elsewhere.

Dave
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Old 14-07-2012, 05:58   #63
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Originally Posted by LifePart2
"

Dave, of course it is more complex, in complex situations. But the bones of it are there. We are just talking about people who are touring Europe in their boats..
Yes to return to cruisers. The fact is as a EU citizen, you can tour the Med for as long as you like, with no border controls, checking or immigration controls. This is a massive advance from previous years.

As a non EU citizen, you are like all countries, subject to stringent immigration. Intros and procedures , sorry that's the way it is all over the world. ( try cruising the US as a foreigner !!)

Dave
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Old 14-07-2012, 06:00   #64
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Originally Posted by conachair

Not so.

As UK domiciled I was non resident in any country for 5 years cruising and paid no tax on any earnings arising outside the UK. Though should have paid tax in the country where the work was carried out, just kept forgetting And it was next to nothing anyway.

Let me google that for you
You may beleive whatever status you think you have. The truth might be somewhat different.
Dave
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Old 14-07-2012, 06:01   #65
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

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Originally Posted by LifePart2 View Post
And, yes, I believe you can be non-resident everywhere. If it takes three years to become non-resident, what happens after world touring for more than three years if, also, you cut ties with any 'home' country and all the other things on which they base their residency rules. It can be done, but is complicated. But, again, I am not going to be drawn into a discussion on it, as this is not the place for that.
UK you are non resident from the date of departure, easy, so long as you meet the conditions.
Meeting the conditions might not be so easy, I believe they were tightened up recently.
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Old 14-07-2012, 06:03   #66
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
You may beleive whatever status you think you have. The truth might be somewhat different.
Dave
I believe what the tax man told me and gave me a bill for, I told them everything. They were fine with it. So don't care what anyone else thinks.
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Old 20-07-2012, 04:38   #67
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

That's been a very interesting topic.

The most important point arising is that
  1. Regulations affecting people visiting other countries (visas, residence permits) are to do with immigration policies, which is a Schengen matter, with EU citizen priveleges;
  2. While regulations affecting the circulation of Goods (means of transport in this case) are to do with customs control which is a country matter, but with the EEC (an extended EU) counting as one country!
And the two approaches take little account of each other.


Confusing for EU residents, let alone non-EU residents


I've written up a lot of the rules and regulations covering this stuff at Going Foreign | JimB Sail , and tried to include a non-EU point of view as well.


For US citizens it's a pain trying cruising European waters for a couple of years. But the non-Schengen countries are useful havens to extend your cruising time; Great Britain, Channel Islands, North African and Levant coasts, Croatia, Turkey, North Cyprus.



Turkey and Croatia, out of that lot, could each occupy 90 days of cruising. Then with a winter trip back to US to see the families (boats can be left "in bond") and the occasional period when you forget to mention you've entered Schengen (Italy is a bit lax about this, but don't try to fly home if you haven't noted an entry! That's asking for a fine, airports are tight n this stuff)



But you have to remember to log out of Schengen each time you leave, otherwise the visa assumes our 90 day allowance is being used up.
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Old 20-07-2012, 09:22   #68
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

You have a nice website, Jim!
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:16   #69
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

JIMB

The following are some errors in your otherwise excellant website
Quote:
"1. The European Union (EU) is best known. It is a common market (free trade area) of some 27 countries whose citizens and goods may move freely within the group. Visiting yachts not registered in the EU can usually obtain permits to keep the yacht within the EU initially for 6 months, extendable fo for up to 18 months at a time. Yacht crew, however, will be limited by their individual visa restrictions. Once in the EU, goods (the boat!) can travel freely. All boats in the EU and used by EU citizens for leisure must be VAT (consumption tax) paid."
Fistly Their is no "cruising permit" for yachts in the EU. Non EU tax residents ( note its not EU citizens) may "avail" of the VAT TIR process ( Temporary Import Relief). This is 18 Months ( not 6) extendable to 24 months in certain circumstances. There is no application to set up TIR, you are simply "entitled" to it. It can be reset by spending any length of time in another non EU country.

As an aside the EU since the Single European Act in 1993, is described as a "economic and political union" hence the EU. The term common market went out with Ted Heath!.

Quote:
4. The Schengen Zone is a group of 22 EU countries, plus Norway and Iceland and Switzerland. These share a common border. Enter any one, and you move freely among them all
while this is the case entering by road or approved means of transport. IN fact it does not apply to private yacht, and in fact Schengen countries may apply other regulations in this case. However in practice there is no immigration per say available to most cruisers in many marina ports, so little happens.

NOTE: That many countries have specific regulations for cruisers first entering the Schengen area, including EU residents outside the Schengen area. ( see Holland).

Quote:
EU residents who own vessels registered outside the EU Customs zones (Gibraltar, Channel Islands, and all other countries outside the EU) may find their ability to cruise these vessels within the EU limited to 1 month (exceptionally more) unless VAT is proven paid.
I would like to see you quote specific regulations. If a EU tax resident exports a boat, they "may" be given a time limit of 1 month to remove the vessel from the EU. This is not a permission to then re-import it into another EU country , i.e. cruise it.

normal you have 3 days to pay import duties on imported goods.


Quote:
Non-EU boats can renew their EU cruising permits for a further 18 months if they prove their boat has been temporarily berthed outside the EU. A cruising permit for the boat is not permission for the crew - crew permission is determined by visas or residence permits.
Again, there is no such thing as a EU cruising permit. TIR purely relates to VAT it confers no right to cruise or not to cruise the EU.

Quote:
CEVNI, ATIS and RAINWAT are considerations often new to the sea sailor
This is a somewhat over simplification. to navigate ones own boat on french inland waterways the skipper must have a ICC ( or the french local inlands ticket) with the CEVNI extensions. I am not aware that the CEVNI exam can result in a standalone ticket. It is an endorsement to the ICC. ( in the norm)

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Old 20-07-2012, 11:56   #70
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

furthermore Jim

Quote:
VAT paid boats should remember they lose VAT paid status after 3 years outside the EU.
This is not the case, please see community wide rules on RGR, ( returned goods relief). In practice with appropriate contact with customs, yachts and other goods remaining in th esame ownership of an EU tax resident may be kept in practice kept for many years outside the EU and still claim RGR on return. The 3 years is a UK practice in the absence of formal paperwork. ( see SAD , ATR Movement etc). The EU does not place a specific ruling on how longRGR applies for and the UK customs will generally extend the 3 years on a reasonable application. Its not a hard and fast ruling.


Quote:
Non-EU registered craft (VAT not paid) entering the EU must obtain a cruising permit. This allows temporary importation for personal use by non-EU nationals, initially for 6 months, extendable to 18 months. To stay longer, a non-EU vessel may leave the EU, then re-enter with proof that they have been moored outside the EU for a day or more. A new permit may then be applied for. Norway and the Channel Islands are outside the EU customs union, and may be used for this purpose. EU law allows EU nationals to obtain only a very limited cruising permit (a month or less) and usually the boat has to be registered and owned by non-EU entities. This is to allow time for transit, or delivery pending import and payment of VAT.
not to harp on TIR is not a "cruising permit" , in fact no specific application is necessary to avail of TIR, merely entering the customs union is sufficient to "avail" of TIR. Certainly NO "permit may then be applied for".

EU nationals do not have any permitted time to import vessels unless specifically agreed with customs in advance and purely to facilitate delivery of the vessel to the "country of destination".

Note that VAT for "new means of transport" for vessels over 7m should be paid in the "country of destination" ( i.e. where the boat is habitually kept) not in the first EU country arrived at. This is a common mistake.
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Old 21-07-2012, 04:57   #71
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

Dave,

Many thanks for your most helpful comments. I was aware the page needed some clarification. You've saved me a lot of work! I now need to recruit you as an editor on customs and immigration matters for my site!

I was aware that TIR was the means of allowing non EU boats to cruise within the EU, but had difficulty finding phrasing which covered different countries approaches to policing this. Some countries (Greece in particular) insists on cruising permits. Others (UK) leave the onus of proving entitlement to the boat's owner - should they be questioned. You've given me some good hints.

The 3 year outside the EU rule still stands for losing VAT paid status. Yes, I accept that there's a very flexible approach taken for return good relief. Among other things, the exit of a boat from the EU does not have to be documented - so it's an open question as to how long it's been outside.

However, the most helpful rule for those bringing goods into the UK is the relief they get if they're taking up residence - having not lived within an EU country for the previous year. You can then (as long as you've owned it long enough) bring a non-VAT paid boat in. I know, lots of caveats - I may need your advice on how best to phrase this!

Agreed, "free circulation of goods" is a much better way of saying it than "a common market". A common market in services is still a long way away! I was trying strongly to differentiate that permits for goods (boats) are very different from permits for people, a idea which many of those new to cruising aren't aware of until they're hit by it.

Too many fine points sometimes fog that understanding.

Thanks again for the time you have taken to clarify the issues.
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Old 21-07-2012, 05:28   #72
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
As to non resident everywhere, I know several EU countries will only release you from their tax residency when you can show you are a tax resident elsewhere.

Dave
No doubt that is true. But does not apply to every country.

I guess the workaround for folks is that they go somewhere else as an interim measure and which later allows them to leave (for tax purposes) without needing to arrive anywhere else (for tax purposes).

However there may well be downsides to not being tax residents anywhere (even if only in making more difficult the claim you are not tax resident in that locale - when officialdom knocks on the door. or the hatch!). and in practice if someone has enough money to consider that approach likely has own Tax Accountants or Tax Lawyers already. or both.......unless going for a more informal approach , which in this day and age is perhaps starting to become more sensible.......
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Old 21-07-2012, 11:15   #73
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Jim my comment re " common market" is that the EU is now defines officially as a economic and political union , since the single European act.

Free movement of services is very hard to achieve. It doesnt exist in the US for instance.

Dave
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Old 22-07-2012, 04:19   #74
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

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Originally Posted by Yofy View Post

<snipped for brevity>
If for any reason, itís not feasible to sail the boat to a non Schegen country, it would always be possible to leave the boat in a marina and fly out to say Croatia or Israel for a weekend. That way you could renew your 90 day limit.

Robyn
The rule is 90 days in followed by 90 days out. Flying to Croatia or Israel or any other non-Schengen country for a weekend solves nothing because it will not renew the 90-day limit.

BTW, we also encountered difficulty getting our passports stamped OUT of the EU last August. We were in Crete. The immigration police in the port refused to stamp our passports; claiming they were not allowed to stamp passports outbound from the country. We had to walk several miles to the large regular city police station where we insisted through 3 levels of superiority until we finally managed to get an official to stamp our passports out of Greece. We were not taking any chances of encountering problems the next time we want to enter Greece, as have 2other American boats we have met who had not been previously properly stamped out at Symi.

We will make certain that our passports do not reflect that we have exceeded our 90-day limit within the Schengen countries, even if that does mean sailing back and forth to Tunisia and Morocco as we progress farther west.

Does anyone have a link to an official website that states that days at sea do not count as time within the Schengen countries? I have found nothing that states this is an official policy, yet cruisers repeat this advice frequently.

Judy
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Old 22-07-2012, 04:56   #75
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

I guess the logic on being at sea is there is a gap between stamps hence only the stamped period is counted as in Europe.

Frank
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