Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

[Lagoon4us]

Thanks, when i purchased the boat it was advised the vessel had been built for export to Croatia tax free.

I made enquiries then and was told a foreigner can have his boat in EU for 18months, this was confirmed last night by an English yachtie who is a neighbour to us here.

As Atoll remarked under a British passport you may travel to any EU country for as long as you wish hence the recipricol influx to UK and likewise from UK to anywhere warmer.

I understand the implications of the Aussie passport only being able to do 90 in 90 out continous if you please which is the problem the OP has.

But my understanding is if a British/NZ (or maybe some others?) passport is used there are no issues or constraints on the traveller whilst the boat has 18months total accumulative in the EU as a foreign registered vessel until/before it attracts EU VAT....

Does this sound correct?

Thanks for all your help i realise i'm on anothers thread however i'm hoping the discussion is pertinent and helping us all.

Cheers Frank

[goboatingnow]

But my understanding is if a British/NZ (or maybe some others?) passport is used there are no issues or constraints on the traveller whilst the boat has 18months total accumulative in the EU as a foreign registered vessel until/before it attracts EU VAT....

Only EU passport holders, inc UK , are completely free from time constraints in the EU. All others will be constrained by whatever rules apply due to either tourist visa rules or reciprocal arrangements.

However if you are availing of the 18 month TIR facility, you should not stay more then 180 days in any one country, so as to avoid becoming a tax resident and loosing TIR status.

Note that is it not foreign flagging that entitles a TIR for the vessel. It is purely the fact that the beneficial owner is not a tax resident of an EU country. A VAT unpaid EU flagged boat could technically get TIR if the owner was established outside the EU.

the TIR period is not cumulative, it is reset by taking the vessel outside the EU for a day or more.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Only EU passport holders, inc UK , are completely free from time constraints in the EU. All others will be constrained by whatever rules apply due to either tourist visa rules or reciprocal arrangements.

However if you are availing of the 18 month TIR facility, you should not stay more then 180 days in any one country, so as to avoid becoming a tax resident and loosing TIR status.

Note that is it not foreign flagging that entitles a TIR for the vessel. It is purely the fact that the beneficial owner is not a tax resident of an EU country. A VAT unpaid EU flagged boat could technically get TIR if the owner was established outside the EU.

the TIR period is not cumulative, it is reset by taking the vessel outside the EU for a day or more.

Ok thanks good information..... Frank

[Yofy]

If for any reason, it’s not feasible to sail the boat to a non Schegen country, it would always be possible to leave the boat in a marina and fly out to say Croatia or Israel for a weekend. That way you could renew your 90 day limit.

Goboatingnow, thanks for the correction. You are absolutely right, that wouldn't work because you have to stay out of the EU for another long period of time before returning to your boat. A weekend just wouldn't do it.

[LifePart2]

Here is my understanding:

If you have an EU passport, you (the person) can stay in Europe as long as you like, BUT if you stay in any one country for more than 6 months, you will become resident.

If you become resident then, even if your boat is flagged foreign, they will consider that you have imported your boat, and so will want to charge VAT.

If you are non-EU passport, then you can stay for upto 90 days in any 180 day period on schengen visa, which means you have to keep leaving for long periods. However, as non-EU resident, with a foreign flag, your boat can stay in Europe for up to 18months without VAT. And if you put it on the hard in a bonded facility the clock stops.

Hope that makes some sense.

Noel

[Lagoon4us]

How can you be deemed a citizen of a particular country if you have a EU passport which should i thought allow you free travel in EU? Confused more lol

[LifePart2]

It's all a question of who gets to tax you. If you spend more than 6 months in, say, Spain, then Spain gets to tax you (and charge VAT on your boat). If you then move and spend 6 months in Italy, then they get to tax you. Fun eh?

[Lagoon4us]

Great stuff, i guess there is another rule for Super Yachts

[Lagoon4us]

Noel....If you have an EU passport, you (the person) can stay in Europe as long as you like, BUT if you stay in any one country for more than 6 months, you will become resident.
This is the bit i didn't know about, innocently i believed Spain was Europe SO you could stay indefinately, thanks much clearer now....

[LifePart2]

Yes, the EU passport lets you travel and live anywhere in the EU, BUT once you live in one country too long, then you become a resident of that country - who then get to tax you. Until you change residence, you are presumed to be still resident in the place you were last resident - though that can be argued and, I believe, you could actually be non-resident everywhere if you are a true rolling stone. 'course then you have to watch your medical coverage...

The VAT on the superyacht will depend on its flag AND the residence of its OWNER - not the captain. So if the yacht is non-EU and the owner is resident non-EU, then it shouldn't matter if the skipper is EU resident - the skipper can stay in Europe as long as he likes, and the boat gets 18 months VAT free. Resident rule applies equally if the owner is a company or a person.

It's all nuts anyway.

PS. I'm not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV. Don't rely on this as legal advice!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by LifePart2

It's all nuts anyway.

PS. I'm not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV. Don't rely on this as legal advice!

Why is it nuts VAT is a consistent set of rules. What's nuts is the way people pass on mis information

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by LifePart2

Yes, the EU passport lets you travel and live anywhere in the EU, BUT once you live in one country too long, then you become a resident of that country - who then get to tax you. Until you change residence, you are presumed to be still resident in the place you were last resident - though that can be argued and, I believe, you could actually be non-resident everywhere if you are a true rolling stone. 'course then you have to watch your medical coverage...

The VAT on the superyacht will depend on its flag AND the residence of its OWNER - not the captain. So if the yacht is non-EU and the owner is resident non-EU, then it shouldn't matter if the skipper is EU resident - the skipper can stay in Europe as long as he likes, and the boat gets 18 months VAT free. Resident rule applies equally if the owner is a company or a person.

It's all nuts anyway.

PS. I'm not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV. Don't rely on this as legal advice!

No you cannot become non resident everywhere.

Beaware that residency, changing residency and more importantly tax residency is far more complex then glossed over here. For example in many countries you can become a tax resident sooner then 180 days depending on what you do and also it can take upto 3 years to become a non tax resident of a country. It's should not be entered into lightly.

Note that residency rules vary considerably across the EU and have all sorts of requirements attached to them. For example if
You become resident in France and are not working then you must have external private medical insurance and you cannot access the French medical system for free. ( except in emergencies or if you have an E111 card)

Or for example if you become a resident of Spain there is a 12.5 % tax on cars and boats above and beyond VAT.

( of course you can use TOR rules, transfer of residence, to sidestep these cases if you are a genuine re-locator )
Dave

[Lagoon4us]

VAT is ok i've no problem on that side as we will be paying GST on our return to our home country in 5 years or so.
What i find hard to believe is with the forming of the EU they effectively restricted cruisers from being able to 'slow cruise country to country' 90 in 180 is just nuts!
We pay our way, we eat out, we hire cars, catch cabs and fly in planes it's all tourist dollars in a big cruising ground.
Restricting times forces hurried exits and along with that some dangers.
We cruisers are small fish BUT it all adds up....
Thanks for your knowledgeable advice, good stuff.

[LifePart2]

"It's all nuts" - that was my political editorial comment. In my view all these passports and border controls should all be scrapped anyway. Countries seem to manage quite well with people living in different cities (even though the cities charge different local taxes", and the EU manages quite well without border controls (though the Euro is a mess for other reasons), so why do we need borders at all? But I will not reply to any replies to this as I don't want to start a political discussion. Just my personal views.

Dave, of course it is more complex, in complex situations. But the bones of it are there. We are just talking about people who are touring Europe in their boats.

And, yes, I believe you can be non-resident everywhere. If it takes three years to become non-resident, what happens after world touring for more than three years if, also, you cut ties with any 'home' country and all the other things on which they base their residency rules. It can be done, but is complicated. But, again, I am not going to be drawn into a discussion on it, as this is not the place for that.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

VAT is ok i've no problem on that side as we will be paying GST on our return to our home country in 5 years or so.
What i find hard to believe is with the forming of the EU they effectively restricted cruisers from being able to 'slow cruise country to country' 90 in 180 is just nuts!
We pay our way, we eat out, we hire cars, catch cabs and fly in planes it's all tourist dollars in a big cruising ground.
Restricting times forces hurried exits and along with that some dangers.
We cruisers are small fish BUT it all adds up....
Thanks for your knowledgeable advice, good stuff.

The 90 of out 180 had nothing to do with cruisers it's designed to accommodate conventional tourists. It's exactly based on the US model visa waiver scheme that's gives you exactly the same. it was brought into being by the Schengen Agreement and includes non EU ( but in EFTA ) countries.

The US at least retained the B1 visa system so you can technically apply to stay upto 1 year,even if it's now difficult to get.

Unfortunately under Schengen there is no EU extended visa. , all such visas are national visas with all sorts of rules a d restrictions.

Note that certain EU countries give Australia and NZ citizens certain long stay concessions based on various reciprocal agreements.

The 90 of of 180 will not change until the US recognises the EU immigration policy as a whole rather then doing bilateral deals with individual EU countries. That's the roadblock.

Dave