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Old 23-06-2012, 05:43   #31
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The schengen dilemma is unfortunate and in practice an oversight. Australians and All Blacks supporters can get extended national visas from individual European countries quite easily as there are a number of reciprocal arrangements. Unfortunately the EU and the US have had a number of run-ins over immigration procedures and I don't see things changing there soon.

For US cruisers, it's a complete anomaly that the boat itself can stay for 18 months before tax is due yet the crew can't.

In practice however, if you arrive and depart by sea, there is very little scrutiny of your passport. Each port officials really don't care what you did in another schengen country and how long you stayed. Equally there is no exit stamps, so they can't tell actually how long you took between countries. Hence traditionally they have just not bothered. Portugal and Greece being somewhat of an exception. ( Portugal has its head up its ass when it comes to rules)

Today what with recession, high unemployment and the need for officials to justify their existence, things are a little tighter. But not much. The main problem is if you ever have to arrive or leave via an airport as staff there are much less forgiving, if you have an overstay issue.

The situation needs a 1year visa like the US version, the problem of course being that it's needs to be EU wide and there's no mechanism for that at the moment. Given the current problems here it isn't gong to get much airtime either.

So it's duck, dodge and weave if you must.

Dave
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Old 23-06-2012, 06:23   #32
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

I flew out of the Canaries after spending over 12 months in the Schengen countries. It was on a round trip ticket which returned in 2 months. They said 'have a nice flight'.
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Old 23-06-2012, 07:40   #33
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The schengen dilemma is unfortunate and in practice an oversight. Australians and All Blacks supporters can get extended national visas from individual European countries quite easily as there are a number of reciprocal arrangements. Unfortunately the EU and the US have had a number of run-ins over immigration procedures and I don't see things changing there soon.

For US cruisers, it's a complete anomaly that the boat itself can stay for 18 months before tax is due yet the crew can't.

In practice however, if you arrive and depart by sea, there is very little scrutiny of your passport. Each port officials really don't care what you did in another schengen country and how long you stayed. Equally there is no exit stamps, so they can't tell actually how long you took between countries. Hence traditionally they have just not bothered. Portugal and Greece being somewhat of an exception. ( Portugal has its head up its ass when it comes to rules)

Today what with recession, high unemployment and the need for officials to justify their existence, things are a little tighter. But not much. The main problem is if you ever have to arrive or leave via an airport as staff there are much less forgiving, if you have an overstay issue.

The situation needs a 1year visa like the US version, the problem of course being that it's needs to be EU wide and there's no mechanism for that at the moment. Given the current problems here it isn't gong to get much airtime either.

So it's duck, dodge and weave if you must.

Dave
We hold both Aussie and English passports so as far as Airports are concerned can enter using alternate, as you say the boat doesn't come into it on such a tight control and we shall be in non-schengen and sailing enough to not worry about it.
We have used Brisbane to Heathrow as our first two entries however Rome will be more economical as we move West.
We go back to Australia every 3 or so months to catch up with the kids/grandkids

Using the two passports i'm hoping will solve our dilemma.
What are your thoughts?
Cheers Frank
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Old 23-06-2012, 09:29   #34
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

Thanks everyone for the responses so far.

We looked into dual passports and that is interesting. It seems that if we had an EU passport AND a US passport then the boat will be taxed after only 1 month in the Schengen countries because the vessel is a US boat and the owner (me) would use an EU passport. At least with a US passport the boat gets 18 months without paying any taxes on it. It is just the crew who can't legally stay with it!

At least that is how I read the wording. So dual passports might not be as easy either.
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Old 23-06-2012, 09:32   #35
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

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Thanks everyone for the responses so far.

We looked into dual passports and that is interesting. It seems that if we had an EU passport AND a US passport then the boat will be taxed after only 1 month in the Schengen countries because the vessel is a US boat and the owner (me) would use an EU passport. At least with a US passport the boat gets 18 months without paying any taxes on it. It is just the crew who can't legally stay with it!

At least that is how I read the wording. So dual passports might not be as easy either.
The flag is the flag, allowing entry should be seperate issue as know one knows you are joining your boat? Think it works for us????
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Old 23-06-2012, 13:48   #36
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

New Zealanders have the right to spend 3 months in each of these countries were the governments have bilateral visa waiver agreements. in the other Schengen member states they are restricted to the 90 days in 180 as are all other no EU nationalities. I believe New Zealand is the only country to have this arrangement.

Austria Belgium Denmark
Finland France Germany
Greece Iceland Italy
Luxembourg The Netherlands Norway
Portugal Spain Sweden
Switzerland
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Old 23-06-2012, 14:48   #37
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

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Originally Posted by SVAspen View Post
Thanks everyone for the responses so far.

We looked into dual passports and that is interesting. It seems that if we had an EU passport AND a US passport then the boat will be taxed after only 1 month in the Schengen countries because the vessel is a US boat and the owner (me) would use an EU passport. At least with a US passport the boat gets 18 months without paying any taxes on it. It is just the crew who can't legally stay with it!

At least that is how I read the wording. So dual passports might not be as easy either.
For VAT purposes the flag of the boat is completely irrelevant. What matters is the status of the "beneficial owner". Once you are not a EU tax resident, it doesn't matter what passport you travel under , you are entitled to 18 months TIR. ( Temporary Import relief) on the boat. Should you stay more then 180 days in any EU country, you would become a tax resident ( irrespective of your passport), your boat would then loose its TIR status and Vat would be immediately due.


Once you can substantiate that you are not a tax resident, because obviously traveling on a EU passport the suspicion is you might be, then the issue does not arise

Note: all these semi-legalistic type discussion belies what actually happens on the ground - nothing. zada zilch zero. Just watch the 180 day limit in any one country especially spain, greece and portugal. Ireland and the Uk will give you 6 months on request.

Dave
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Old 23-06-2012, 23:18   #38
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

Off thread slightly but i'm convinced if any boat buyers were to by an ex:SUNSAIL boat you could travel the MED without an official making contact with you, simply keep the boat in the SUNSAIL livery and cruise wherever SUNSAIL are based AND THAT IS MOST PLACES!
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Old 24-06-2012, 05:22   #39
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

Well it sounds good but in reality there are lots of places where you could get caught. Two summers ago we delivered a Lagoon 50 from La Rochelle France to the Red Sea. The boat was registered out of the Schengen community and all crew had non Schengen passports.

Our route took us out of France (where we all entered the EU) down the Atlantic coast through Gibraltar strait and out to the Med. We stayed in Spain for a couple of weeks and then sailed on to Italy via Sardinia and Sicily. In Sicily the marine police were doing routine checks on ALL the boats, checking every crew passport very carefully to make sure they hadn't overstayed their 90 days. I was the one who talked to them on our boat and they were very nice but very thorough too. Luckily we were on to Greece the next day. In Greece we tried to LEAVE the EU, explaining that we all needed our passports stamped. We were in a little port on the Peloponnese and were leaving for Egypt. The port police would NOT stamp our passports so we had to leave with no exit from the EU.

That's how it goes. Some places are very strict, some are very lax. The thing is you never know who is going to check you, so itís best to tow the line.


If for any reason, itís not feasible to sail the boat to a non Schegen country, it would always be possible to leave the boat in a marina and fly out to say Croatia or Israel for a weekend. That way you could renew your 90 day limit.
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Old 24-06-2012, 05:55   #40
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

But isn't it 90 in 180 so if you smack on your 90 you have to stay out for a further 90?
This is the point i'm unsure about using 2 passports, yes you are same entity but a different citizen?
Can British stay longer than 90 in EU?
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Old 24-06-2012, 06:04   #41
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

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But isn't it 90 in 180 so if you smack on your 90 you have to stay out for a further 90?
This is the point i'm unsure about using 2 passports, yes you are same entity but a different citizen?
Can British stay longer than 90 in EU?
A British Passport holder / citizen can stay anywhere in the EU for as long as he wants (and can also work) - with no visa required.....and of course vice verce as the Brits found out when half of Poland arrived in the UK a few years back .

Probably important to arrive and leave on the same passport, just in case it gives the impression that you as a (non EU) "foreigner" never left! - or simply that it looks like you are trying to muddy the waters on your movements (with officialdom the KISS approach works best).
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Old 24-06-2012, 06:29   #42
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

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A British Passport holder / citizen can stay anywhere in the EU for as long as he wants (and can also work) - with no visa required.....and of course vice verce as the Brits found out when half of Poland arrived in the UK a few years back .

Probably important to arrive and leave on the same passport, just in case it gives the impression that you as a (non EU) "foreigner" never left! - or simply that it looks like you are trying to muddy the waters on your movements (with officialdom the KISS approach works best).
Ok so we have boat registered in Australia which i believe it can stay in EU for 18month stint before attracting VAT and fly in and out of EU using our British Passports and all should be ok?
Frank
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Old 24-06-2012, 06:50   #43
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

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Ok so we have boat registered in Australia which i believe it can stay in EU for 18month stint before attracting VAT and fly in and out of EU using our British Passports and all should be ok?
Frank
the flaw is that even though you are residents of aus,after being in the eu for more than 180 days on an eu passport you are considered to be an eu resident,with the corresponding tax implications.
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Old 24-06-2012, 09:26   #44
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Re: Med to Caribbean Crossing Dilema - Schengen Problem?

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the flaw is that even though you are residents of aus,after being in the eu for more than 180 days on an eu passport you are considered to be an eu resident,with the corresponding tax implications.
Ok i guess we shall have to work the non-euro country intermittantly which will mean North Africa ie Morocco i guess to break up the time, we plan on exiting via ARC 2013.
Cheers it's a dumb system when you think all monies are outgoing from us to whichever country we are in but then again ramifications were probably never considered....

Cheers Frank
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Old 24-06-2012, 15:51   #45
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People really muddy the waters.

Under schengen, firstly even of you are in the visa waiver list you are still bound by the rules. There are 90 days in any 180. So after consuming 90 days you must stay out for at least 90 days. This is because the maximum you can squeeze is 2x 90 day vists in a year, why, because one more day and youre a tax resident.

If you travel on UK passports just ensure you do not spend more then 180 in any one country in a calendar year, Other then that you are free , on those passports to stay for upto 180 days in each country, rather then the schengen limit of 90 days in total across all countries The 180 day limit has nothing to do with schengen, or your UK passports, You simply don't want to run the risk of becoming a tax resident and in the process loose the vat exemption on the boat.

The current system isn't dumb. It's designed to meet the needs of the vast majority of tourists. It doesn't work for boaters but hey that's tough.

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the flaw is that even though you are residents of aus,after being in the eu for more than 180 days on an eu passport you are considered to be an eu resident,with the corresponding tax implications
No not correct, only if you stay in one country for more than 180 days ( and the rules vary across each EU country) there is no such thing as "EU residency" per say. EU residency means becoming a resident of an EU country rather then the EU itself.

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