Med cruising and managing Schengen

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Exactly, you must clear out of the country before the days at sea don't count. Then the days begin counting again after you clear in. Always be sure to say your destination is a non-EU country for the days not to count.

What you should have done was quickly clear in and out of Gibraltar, then be slow to clear back in someplace in Spain.

I think we've had this conversation before, but be careful with "being slow to clear in". It's a serious violation to be walking around in Spain, not having cleared immigration. Your odds of not getting caught may be good, but just be aware of what can happen if you do get caught.

Which is not to say that I haven't done it myself -- I have. I have done it on occasion not to stretch the 90/180 rule, but because I entered Schengen in ports which were not ports of entry. Which you are not supposed to do. This year for example I stopped in Scheveningen to wait out a Nor'easter, on passage between the UK and Helgoland. I could not clear in there. I did it when I arrived in Helgoland, where it is extremely simple. On the way, I got boarded by Netherlands Coast Guard. At sea. They wanted to know, among other things, everywhere where we had been, and I told them honestly (would have been easy enough for them to check) that we had stopped in Scheveningen because of the weather (which was true; and I was building up a case for its having been an emergency stop forced by weather in case they wanted to get picky about non port of entry etc.). They could have really stuck it to me, had they decided to press the point, so I was very lucky that they didn't.

If you break the rules, do it with a sober assessment of the risks and consequences!

[valhalla360]

If you don't need to be on the boat 365 days per year, another option is to put her up and travel somewhere else for a few months. Winter is usually pretty dead on the water anyway, so plan as such:
- spring: in Schengen
- Summer: in Non-Schengen
- Fall: in Schengen
- Winter: Fly somewhere and pick up a cheap apartment for 3 months.

If the summer heat is too bad for you, you can always fly out in the summer also and still get 6 months per year.

[Pilou]

Originally Posted by ccannan

....Unfortunately some people conflate "Europe" and "Schengen"....

True. Schengen agreement is implemented by "only" 22 European Union members countries and as well by 4 non-members countries (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland).

[42Possibilities]

Thanks all for the great input.
As Kenomac points out the Western Med is the challenge. We would like to spend some quality cruising time there but have to travel a long way in a relatively short time to clear it within Schengen time limits. Our options seem to be:
Using the clear-out/clear-in technique as much as possible,
1. Get to the Adriatic within 90 days (- time in the Azores) and winter in Albania/Montenegro/Croatia; or
2. Get to Turkey within 90 days, (excluding a possible short stop in one of those non-Schengen countries)
Both these options are 2000+ NM coastal cruising! I’m not saying it can’t be done but it does seem a little rushed (average 22 NM per day). Looks like we will have to choose some places we really like, and skip others (i.e. some longer passages bypassing some regions). Maybe catch some of those areas on the return trip (but ensure we save some Schengen time for the Canary Islands)
Does this sound about right?
WRT to staying longer, it’s a 2 year plan… for now

[Kenomac]

42p,

When you get to the Azores, clear out giving Gibraltar as your destination, then all those transit days won't count, leave your boat in Gibraltar and see Portugal via auto. It's not that big.

Then see southern Spain and the Balerics culminating with Barcelona which is a must see, then head up to Southern France and Italy, corsica and Sardinia. Haul the boat out in Sardinia at my favorite shipyard Nausika and take a break. Go home or visit some non- schengen countries. Maybe even take a cruise. At six months, you're going to be getting kinda sick of each other anyway. Then begin by flying into Madrid, see Madrid on your way to way back to Italy, Rome, Naples, Capri etc for three months, then head over to the Adriatic.

Note: You don't wanna be in the Med for winter, haul out the boat or go someplace warm. Israel is about your only choice in the Med that's non Schengen, safe and warm. Some people like chuckr have wintered in Tunisia and Turkey, contact him for details.

[Ferrari]

Tunisia is also very viable to your plans and a lot closer to Turkey or Croatia.
We've left Chinook at Port Yasmnine in Hammamet which is just fine, and Marina De Bizerete would be even closer for you.
Haven't been there but check it out on the Noonsite webpage for comments.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by 42Possibilities

Looks like we will have to choose some places we really like, and skip others (i.e. some longer passages bypassing some regions). Maybe catch some of those areas on the return trip

Wifey B: We've termed that "leap frogging" and we do it regularly. We stop at half the places we want to see going and the other half returning. Either way can have more or less depending on the time you're looking to spend. Just we don't stop at the same places both ways. That way we see more places.

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by 42Possibilities

Thanks all for the great input.
As Kenomac points out the Western Med is the challenge. We would like to spend some quality cruising time there but have to travel a long way in a relatively short time to clear it within Schengen time limits. Our options seem to be:
Using the clear-out/clear-in technique as much as possible,
1. Get to the Adriatic within 90 days (- time in the Azores) and winter in Albania/Montenegro/Croatia; or
2. Get to Turkey within 90 days, (excluding a possible short stop in one of those non-Schengen countries)
Both these options are 2000+ NM coastal cruising! I’m not saying it can’t be done but it does seem a little rushed (average 22 NM per day). Looks like we will have to choose some places we really like, and skip others (i.e. some longer passages bypassing some regions). Maybe catch some of those areas on the return trip (but ensure we save some Schengen time for the Canary Islands)
Does this sound about right?
WRT to staying longer, it’s a 2 year plan… for now

Look into a long term visa. It's not that hard for a US citizen (maybe you're Canadian), who maintains ties to the US (own a house, bank accounts, etc) to get a one year visa for France, for instance.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Look into a long term visa. It's not that hard for a US citizen (maybe you're Canadian), who maintains ties to the US (own a house, bank accounts, etc) to get a one year visa for France, for instance.

It's possible to get a one year visa for several of the countries but it doesn't change the Schengen aspect. Days in that country still count toward your Schengen days. So, it generally would need to be the country you enter after your 90 days are up and it still will prevent you from returning to a Schengen country until you've been out for 90 days. We're considering cruising 90 days, 90 out, 90 back in and then 90 in Spain before flying home for 90, something of that nature.

I use 90 days for simplicity but be very careful in recognizing the law states 90 days in out of six months. So, after 90 days in, you must be out either 92 or 93 days, depending on time of year, to comply and reenter.

[Kenomac]

Make sure you always check your passport to make sure it was stamped properly in or out, and keep all of your boarding passes for airline flights.

[Budawang]

Originally Posted by Cormorant

I've often thought of having two or three or four US/Canadian families go in as partners on a boat to be kept in the Med. (Or a canal boat on any of the Euro canals.) Then you divvy up time among the partners so you fly in for a two or three month cruise, then fly home. Repeat as often as possible.

The devil would be in the details of the partnership agreement (how to sell your share), maintenance and upkeep, and boat positioning for the next guy, etc. But it could be a good way to cruise the Med within Schengen time limits for 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 the boat cost.

I'm a member of a club with 8 members which does exactly this but in the South West Pacific. It works brilliantly but relies on having a good constitution.

Details are on our website:

evenkeels.org.au

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by BandB

It's possible to get a one year visa for several of the countries but it doesn't change the Schengen aspect. Days in that country still count toward your Schengen days. So, it generally would need to be the country you enter after your 90 days are up and it still will prevent you from returning to a Schengen country until you've been out for 90 days. We're considering cruising 90 days, 90 out, 90 back in and then 90 in Spain before flying home for 90, something of that nature.

I use 90 days for simplicity but be very careful in recognizing the law states 90 days in out of six months. So, after 90 days in, you must be out either 92 or 93 days, depending on time of year, to comply and reenter.

To be more precise: if you have a one-year visa (or residence permit) to a Schengen country, then you are allowed to live there for one year and come and go as you please. There is no 90/180 restriction for THAT COUNTRY. You may not, however, spend more than 90 out of any 180 (NOT half year) days in the rest of Schengen -- theoretically.

However, having a residence permit or long term visa to a Schengen country dramatically changes your status from a practical point of view, and from a practical point of view, solves the problem. The reason is that you can analyze and prove something about when you came in and out of Schengen -- because you get stamped in and out when you enter or leave the Schengen Zone as a whole. But to analyze and prove how you moved around WITHIN Schengen is just about impossible. It could theoretically be done with your boat log, but it can't be done with your passport at all. So practically they are just not interested.

The exception to this would be if you have obviously been for a long time in some Schengen country which is not the country which issued your one-year visa or residence permit. So you shouldn't take a one-year visa to France, and then spend a year in Greece. But travelling around while having a one-year visa or residence permit should be OK as long as you are actually spending a lot of time in the country which issued it, and if you can say with some plausibility that you are spending most of your time there.

This is my situation -- I have had a residence permit to one Schengen country for some years now. I fly in and out of Schengen on an almost weekly basis and have a lot of contact with immigration authorities. My experience is that when they catch sight of the residence card, they totally lose interest in me.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

To be more precise: if you have a one-year visa (or residence permit) to a Schengen country, then you are allowed to live there for one year and come and go as you please. There is no 90/180 restriction for THAT COUNTRY. You may not, however, spend more than 90 out of any 180 (NOT half year) days in the rest of Schengen -- theoretically.

However, having a residence permit or long term visa to a Schengen country dramatically changes your status from a practical point of view, and from a practical point of view, solves the problem. The reason is that you can analyze and prove something about when you came in and out of Schengen -- because you get stamped in and out when you enter or leave the Schengen Zone as a whole. But to analyze and prove how you moved around WITHIN Schengen is just about impossible. It could theoretically be done with your boat log, but it can't be done with your passport at all. So practically they are just not interested.

The exception to this would be if you have obviously been for a long time in some Schengen country which is not the country which issued your one-year visa or residence permit. So you shouldn't take a one-year visa to France, and then spend a year in Greece. But travelling around while having a one-year visa or residence permit should be OK as long as you are actually spending a lot of time in the country which issued it, and if you can say with some plausibility that you are spending most of your time there.

This is my situation -- I have had a residence permit to one Schengen country for some years now. I fly in and out of Schengen on an almost weekly basis and have a lot of contact with immigration authorities. My experience is that when they catch sight of the residence card, they totally lose interest in me.

Correcting one word in your first paragraph. It's not "Theoretically, it's Legally."

If you go from country to country in a boat does that change the situation any or do they still accept your residence card and not question?

Now, my understanding is that while that might well work as it has for you, if one ever got caught doing it, then you're out and no more visa back of any sort.

Would a group of 12 people or so be able to do it together? I would think that would lead to some red flags.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by 42Possibilities

Thanks all for the great input.
As Kenomac points out the Western Med is the challenge. We would like to spend some quality cruising time there but have to travel a long way in a relatively short time to clear it within Schengen time limits. Our options seem to be:
Using the clear-out/clear-in technique as much as possible,
1. Get to the Adriatic within 90 days (- time in the Azores) and winter in Albania/Montenegro/Croatia; or
2. Get to Turkey within 90 days, (excluding a possible short stop in one of those non-Schengen countries)
Both these options are 2000+ NM coastal cruising! I’m not saying it can’t be done but it does seem a little rushed (average 22 NM per day). Looks like we will have to choose some places we really like, and skip others (i.e. some longer passages bypassing some regions). Maybe catch some of those areas on the return trip (but ensure we save some Schengen time for the Canary Islands)
Does this sound about right?
WRT to staying longer, it’s a 2 year plan… for now

Update on my thoughts...

We know many couples and families who burn out completely within six months trying to do what you're doing, which is to see way too much in too short a time by covering many thousands of miles. They end up not seeing much of anything except for a few rushed tours of a couple cities in each country, then give up due to the travel drain on their relationship and wear and tear on the boat.... which causes many frustrating delays due to repairs.

Some good friends of ours are always in such a hurry to cover so much distance, they never have time to see anything. Over the past two months, they covered 4500 nm on their way back to "settle down a bit" in Croatia from Antigua. They made it to Barcelona before they quit again, now their plans are to try start #4 in April 2018, and all they saw on restart #3 (this yesr) besides the Atlantic ocean was Gibraltar for a week, Azores for two days, Barcelona for a week and Cartegena, their only stops.

The first place prize medal doesn't go to the couple who covers the most miles.

[omc]

Originally Posted by BandB

Correcting one word in your first paragraph. It's not "Theoretically, it's Legally."

If you go from country to country in a boat does that change the situation any or do they still accept your residence card and not question?

Now, my understanding is that while that might well work as it has for you, if one ever got caught doing it, then you're out and no more visa back of any sort.

Would a group of 12 people or so be able to do it together? I would think that would lead to some red flags.

With all due respect to Dockhead,

According to knowledge of law which is my job, I would state that BandB is definitely right, the risk is great, it does not match the gain.
Generally speaking, everyone does his own things but is supposed to be aware of the implications of risk. More precisely, as is know in our system, ignorance or oversight of the law is no excuse or defence.