Long term cruising questions

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

FatBear,

My wife and I completely agree that if we were to do things over again, a powercat, power catamaran would be the best way to see the Med. We'd be able to move quickly to avoid bad weather, a very stable house-like environment with exceptional 360 views out the windows. We spend way to much time below looking out relatively small windows... and we have a deck saloon.

Nothing beats a powercat for truly enjoying a beautiful anchorage. We might make the change in a few years depending on finances, they don't come cheap.

Maybe someday.

well, why not scale down a bit. Powerboats often have a better layout and make better use of their length.
Lagoon 43 aren't that expensive.

Or the extreme: I have recently seen a two stateroom / two head FP Greenland 34ft power cat for 75k Euro. Somewhere in France, and if I remember correctly VAT paid.
Big enough for a couple, won't break the bank ad cheap to operate (IIRC it had 2x75 HP)

[Scaramanga F25]

Residents of sunny Southern California got to south to Baja for winter.

[FatBear]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

Residents of sunny Southern California got to south to Baja for winter.

Yup, and the 'Zonies come from Arizona to Southern CA for the summer. The grass is always greener...

[FatBear]

I will take a look at power cats. It seems like they could make the transition through France on the larger canals, but may have difficulty if we wish to make a side trip. Would they have difficulty finding dock space?

There is an optimum boat for every condition. And all-purpose boats are compromises in most situations. But having the budget for only one boat, and wishing to cruise the great frozen north during at least one summer, we would probably end up with some form of all-purpose boat. Maybe one with a really good weather plotter.

I doubt that the link will survive as long as this posting does, so my apologies to those reading this out in the future, but here is an example of the type of boat I had considered:

2003 Stevens 1300 Vlet Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

We could afford this when we sell our current floating home, though this is at the high end of our price range. And of course this particular boat will likely be sold by the time we are ready to buy one.

It does have twin engines which someone pointed out could be a problem in the canals. But twins are very nice security when away from the shore. These are small twins which is good. They should be quieter and use a lot less fuel. Still, I am not averse to a single engine. It's what I've always had before.

This one has a bow thruster which is probably redundant with the twins. But every boat in this class seems to have them and I can see no harm in it. I've never used one but my wife is strongly in favor, theorizing that they would help keep the boat in place in a lock as she clambers ashore to handle the lines. (She has more experience at that than she wants to remember.)

It has room for us and visiting friends, without having so much room that the friends will want to stay for long visits. I even saw another similar boat with a hydraulic gangway on the stern for stern-tied moorages. Pretty fancy.

Opinions and criticisms are welcomed.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by rabbi

well, why not scale down a bit. Powerboats often have a better layout and make better use of their length.
Lagoon 43 aren't that expensive.

Or the extreme: I have recently seen a two stateroom / two head FP Greenland 34ft power cat for 75k Euro. Somewhere in France, and if I remember correctly VAT paid.
Big enough for a couple, won't break the bank ad cheap to operate (IIRC it had 2x75 HP)

Trying to work my way up, not interested in falling back.

Something like this Horizon PC52 would be more like it when it comes within reach.

But thanks for the suggestion, I've looked at the Lagoon 43 a while back.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1SFGCKgdQ4

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by FatBear

I will take a look at power cats. It seems like they could make the transition through France on the larger canals, but may have difficulty if we wish to make a side trip. Would they have difficulty finding dock space?

.

5m seems to be the beam where it starts to get hard to fit in a lot of the canals.

We just picked up a 10m sail cat and plan to run the canals. Keeping the beam under control was a key consideration.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by FatBear

I will take a look at power cats. It seems like they could make the transition through France on the larger canals, but may have difficulty if we wish to make a side trip. Would they have difficulty finding dock space?

Our experiences on the French canals were no marinas and side tying to the bank for the night, on the Nivernais and Midi. If you want to make "side trips," you MUST check the size of the locks. The Nivernais is drop dead gorgeous but the locks are very small. Indeed, before you buy any boat, you should check the canal lock sizes and depths. No experience in marinas other than the ones that had the rental boats.

[FatBear]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Our experiences on the French canals were no marinas and side tying to the bank for the night, on the Nivernais and Midi. If you want to make "side trips," you MUST check the size of the locks. The Nivernais is drop dead gorgeous but the locks are very small. Indeed, before you buy any boat, you should check the canal lock sizes and depths. No experience in marinas other than the ones that had the rental boats.

Nivernais is the one we spent two weeks on. Very nice if you like cows. Having grown up in rural Oregon it felt very much like home, but we weren't looking for home at the time. My wife was kind of hoping for more towns like Auxerre or Clamecy and burgs without the closed up shops. The tunnel and its approaches was very cool. The section with the cliffs was very scenic. I liked all of the boat handling - locks and bridges and side-tying and such. My wife was less enthusiastic about that part. She didn't hate it, but the being-there was more important to her than the getting-there.

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by FatBear

Nivernais is the one we spent two weeks on. Very nice if you like cows. Having grown up in rural Oregon it felt very much like home, but we weren't looking for home at the time. My wife was kind of hoping for more towns like Auxerre or Clamecy and burgs without the closed up shops. The tunnel and its approaches was very cool. The section with the cliffs was very scenic. I liked all of the boat handling - locks and bridges and side-tying and such. My wife was less enthusiastic about that part. She didn't hate it, but the being-there was more important to her than the getting-there.

Yup, all the canals are not uniform throughout their length nor are the clearances despite what the regs say. If you get stuck, they do send a backhoe to chop your ship up and haul it away.

[facciatosta]

Originally Posted by FatBear

Yeah, I was reading about that the other day. So does that mean you have to fly over, get a place, then fly back and apply, then fly over again? Seems like quite a hassle. It isn't possible to go over, find a place, and apply locally?
And can you change your location once you are there with your visa? Like if we started out in one town and found a place we liked better in another town?

Yes, it is a hassle. That is the way Italy is( I stayed there 8 years). No, you have to apply in the United States. This is universal rule used by most countries - applying for visa in home country. Getting place still does not guarantee you get the visa. You need to demonstrate you financial viability, knowledge of culture and language. In other hand Italian immigration is usually very lenient toward Americans as long as you do not get into some troubles. So you may hang around for awhile but you won't be able to open bank account without residence permit and therefore do certain transactions. At airport they just stamp the passport without ever looking into it. In Rome they even did not do that. Beware however Germans and Swiss - these are very vigilant.
Of course buying property in Italy comes with sale tax and property tax just like anywhere else.

[FatBear]

I'm back. Sorry, but my Dad's health took a major downturn, we had to put my Mom in assisted living and Dad is cycling between rehab and the hospital with not much time left. I've been very busy.

My wife was questioning me, last night, and I realized I don't have good answers for some of her questions. Is it feasible to move from port to port in Italy, southern France, and maybe the east side of the Adriatic and Greece, rather than having to anchor out everywhere? I told her that my guess was that most ports would have limited transient moorage if any and it would be very hard to get one in the summer. I also guessed that we might be able to find monthly slips more easily, though I still have no idea if we could find one in the summer. Was I close?

Is there an area in Spain, France or Italy where we could winter over without too miserable of weather? Per the earlier discussions, we are Oregonians, not Californians, and can handle some nasty weather, but we're also getting older and becoming less tolerant of it.

If we have a boat in a "home port" somewhere in Italy, can that qualify as a residence for purposes of getting a residence visa? If not, we'd probably have to buy or lease a place. (I was offered a small place near Lucca for $50K, which didn't seem like a bad idea, but we weren't ready to commit at the time.)

[Yofy]

Really sorry to hear about your father's health. We have just been through similar circumstances with one parent and its really stressful. Moving a parent into assisted living is tough too. I hope your father's situation stabilizes enough for him to join your mother.

Having said that, you will be very thankful that all this is happening while you are still stateside. Dealing with family issues when you are cruising abroad is really not an easy thing.

We've been following this thread because we are approaching similar choices although we have been livingaboard outside of Schengen countries for many years. We are Canadian nationals and retiring in the Med does have its issues for non EU residents.

We have spent a fair bit of time sailing in the Med during the summer - often on delivery jobs and sometimes cruising. From our experience marinas in France, Spain and Italy are very expensive and jam packed in the summer months. Marinas in Turkey are cheaper and with more space, but still quite expensive for anyone on a limited budget and busy in the summer. You'd need to reserve well in advance and be prepared to pay top dollar.

In Greece there are some marinas where you could stay for long periods in the summer months, but most dockage is on town docks or walls on the islands. Here you would be discouraged from staying more than a few nights. People do manage to find places where they can settle in for long periods but they are generally in neglected spots that may not appeal to your wife. Many of the town docks are free (although this summer we were hit with fees) and they often do not have electricity or water.

We second check out the JIMB sail site for lots of good information. JimB Sail | Helping Skippers plan European Cruises
We also follow different sail blogs for up to date information on how others have done it. One of the blogs we've followed is Aisling's blog. They are Canadians who sailed over to Europe and have been cruising the Med during the summer for many years. They do not live full time in Europe but fly back to Canada for the winters. Still you can get a feel for costs, and facilities through their blog. Aisling I

Manny and Robyn








Anchoring is always free and your wife may find that she actually prefers it. Robyn likes to anchor out for about a week at a time and then find a place where we can tie up so we can top up our water and batteries, have long showers, and use our AC if its really hot. If its a nice place we stay a couple of nights, eat out, and might even rent a car to explore inland. Then she's ready to head back out to the peace and quiet of another anchorage.

Everybody finds

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by FatBear

I'm back. Sorry, but my Dad's health took a major downturn, we had to put my Mom in assisted living and Dad is cycling between rehab and the hospital with not much time left. I've been very busy.

My wife was questioning me, last night, and I realized I don't have good answers for some of her questions. Is it feasible to move from port to port in Italy, southern France, and maybe the east side of the Adriatic and Greece, rather than having to anchor out everywhere? I told her that my guess was that most ports would have limited transient moorage if any and it would be very hard to get one in the summer. I also guessed that we might be able to find monthly slips more easily, though I still have no idea if we could find one in the summer. Was I close?

Is there an area in Spain, France or Italy where we could winter over without too miserable of weather? Per the earlier discussions, we are Oregonians, not Californians, and can handle some nasty weather, but we're also getting older and becoming less tolerant of it.

If we have a boat in a "home port" somewhere in Italy, can that qualify as a residence for purposes of getting a residence visa? If not, we'd probably have to buy or lease a place. (I was offered a small place near Lucca for $50K, which didn't seem like a bad idea, but we weren't ready to commit at the time.)

First sorry to hear about your parents - tough -- good luck with that

Second - we sailed Italy from Rome south and up the other side in the summer and never had an issue with a transit space or a space for a few days if we could not anchor - and we did a couple of places stay for a week or more to get repairs done or travel inland

third -- you need to understand Schengen - 90 in 90 out - your boat homeport makes no difference it is your passport - in fact if your boat has not had VAT paid on it it could lead to some unexpected expense but there are a lot more knowledgable people here than me on that -
But Schengen is real and you can get residence but be prepared to jump through a lot of hoops and have patience as it can be done but difficult and time consuming and may be expensive
we wintered over 2 years in Tunisia and loved it and last year in Kusadasi Turkey and God willing this year if we can ever get out of the Black Sea -

fourth as for age - I am 71 and admiral is 69 and if we can make the next 90nm today and tonight we will have sailed all the way around the Black Sea - it was tough to say the least -

[FatBear]

Originally Posted by chuckr

First sorry to hear about your parents - tough

Thank you. My Mom is pretty well setup now, but my Dad died a couple of weeks ago. In fact, his memorial service is Saturday. It's a tough hit, even if he was very old.

third -- you need to understand Schengen ... Schengen is real and you can get residence but be prepared to jump through a lot of hoops and have patience as it can be done but difficult and time consuming and may be expensive

Right now we are actually leaning more towards getting a residence in Italy and probably a smaller boat for shorter-term cruising. But you're right about the hassle. We have to own or lease a place before we can apply for the visa - that makes sense - but then we need to apply for the visa here in the states. That's weird. And it means an extra round trip and a lot of short-term rental expense while we decide where to live. It's not something you can just google up. It may take the 90 days just to decide on a place.

fourth as for age - I am 71 and admiral is 69 and if we can make the next 90nm today and tonight we will have sailed all the way around the Black Sea - it was tough to say the least -

Well now that is encouraging!

Thank you for your helpful advice.

[FatBear]

Originally Posted by Yofy

Having said that, you will be very thankful that all this is happening while you are still stateside. Dealing with family issues when you are cruising abroad is really not an easy thing.

Fortunately, I have three brothers, two of which live nearby. They are used to us being gone all winter. But really serious things would require a trip home and that would not be pleasant or cheap. And this will be an issue whether we are cruising or in that stone residence I mentioned in the previous posting.

We second check out the JIMB sail site for lots of good information. JimB Sail | Helping Skippers plan European Cruises
We also follow different sail blogs for up to date information on how others have done it. One of the blogs we've followed is Aisling's blog. They are Canadians who sailed over to Europe and have been cruising the Med during the summer for many years. They do not live full time in Europe but fly back to Canada for the winters. Still you can get a feel for costs, and facilities through their blog. Aisling I

Thank you. I will look into these resources.

Anchoring is always free and your wife may find that she actually prefers it. ... Then she's ready to head back out to the peace and quiet of another anchorage.

Peace and quiet sounds very nice to me. I think my wife wants more interaction. Opposites attract...