Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

[rob d]

Originally Posted by PamlicoTraveler

When its all said and done these European Countries are going to need revenue. I think it will be realized that you aren't going to get much by taxing a boat 8 Euros a day...You aregoing to get it from having them spend 50-100 Euros a day in restaurants and purchases. Discouraging travelers when they have a lot of choices in the Med will not work.

What is paid out in cruising fees, taxes and other fees doesn't get spent with the local populace for their goods and services. Or cruisers choose to bypass the area and spend their time and euros in a country that doesn't impose exorbitant fees.

Killing the golden goose has gone since day one. The results are almost always the same in the end.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rob d

What is paid out in cruising fees, taxes and other fees doesn't get spent with the local populace for their goods and services. Or cruisers choose to bypass the area and spend their time and euros in a country that doesn't impose exorbitant fees.

Killing the golden goose has gone since day one. The results are almost always the same in the end.

Maybe, but he's being killed several times over.

Despite all the ranting, people and their assets are much less mobile then you think. Firstly forget all the hardcore cruising types, they make up a handful of boats , utterly financially and statistically irrelevant. Equally super yachts , for them this tax is a fraction of their operating costs, monetarily irrelevant.

The main group will be Italians and other foreigners who keep their boats in Italy, most Italians can't move their boats, to where, France ( yeah like find a berth at a reasonable price ) say you based near Naples, you aren't going to drive to France for your boat, the fuel and the tolls are much higher then this tax.

The practicalities are these taxes don't kill any goose, they just make the locals a little poorer. Yes some will get out of boating, but I suspect those that do, were getting out anyway due to macro financial situations. if it hits a few foreigners, so what ( they are by definition wealthy, they own a boat and holiday abroad ) , boaters are not amongst the marginal in society. Would you suggest they tax the poor instead.

It's a consumption tax, and at least you can control it's costs far better then say it was an income tax.

In general as an activity leisure boating does not suffer high taxes. I for one would not let it sway me from visiting the superb Italian coast., and I suspect it will deter few others too. I mean be price of fuel has rocketed but I still see foreign boats pumping it.

Dave

[Polux]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Again you don't understand.

....
The EU again has no say in the application of taxes on services. ...
This is a simple usage tax,...

Dave

It seems to me that it is you that don't understand.

You can tax services. They are not taxing a service. They are not taxing an usage. They are taxing the simple fact of a EC citizen to be on Italian waters.

That is not a service neither a use since the freedom of circulation gives you the right to be there. If they can tax that, they can tax also the air you breathe in Italy, providing they tax also that air to all Italians.

Manuel

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Polux

It seems to me that it is you that don't understand.

You can tax services. They are not taxing a service. They are not taxing an usage. They are taxing the simple fact of a EC citizen to be on Italian waters.

That is not a service neither a use since the freedom of circulation gives you the right to be there. If they can tax that, they can tax also the air you breathe in Italy, providing they tax also that air to all Italians.

Manuel

Sorry, many countries including say Croatia can charge you to merely anchor. Countries can charge you to enter ( see entry visa costs, like in turkey ) if they wanted legally they could tax the air. Remember you are merely entitled as a Citizen of an EU member state to free movement not no cost movement. For example have a look at anchorage fees for big ships, they get charged for merely dropping anchor inside a port limits ( and some of these limits are huge). A sovereign government can tax what's it likes within its territorial limits. If will never fall foul of EU laws unless it discriminates. ( which was why the Greek cruising tax had to be withdrawn as it didn't affect Greeks)

Ps. They are taxing a usage, usage of marinas and mooring fields and anchorages.

Dave

[Polux]

Again, you are mixing things:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sorry, many countries including say Croatia can charge you to merely anchor. Countries can charge you to enter ( see entry visa costs, like in turkey )

Croatia and Turkey are not EC countries. I cruise on Croatia, they don't charge you for anchoring unless it is a natural park or it is a concession. On a concession you can have a buoy for the same price of anchoring, but if you anchor you pay as much as in a buoy. There is lots of places were you can anchor for free (I have been there this year and last year).

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

For example have a look at anchorage fees for big ships, they get charged for merely dropping anchor inside a port limits ( and some of these limits are huge).

I have said that they have the right for tax for something. In a port or sheltered by it, or inside some restricted areas it is their tight to tax and that is what happens to ships.

That is not what they are taxing: They are taxing all their public waters and that as nothing to do with your example.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

They are taxing a usage, usage of marinas and mooring fields and anchorages.

Yes, they can tax that, since they are providing a service, but that is not only what they are taxing. They are taxing all their public waters.

Manuel

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Polux

Again, you are mixing things:

Croatia and Turkey are not EC countries. I cruise on Croatia, they don't charge you for anchoring unless it is a natural park or it is a concession. On a concession you can have a buoy for the same price of anchoring, but if you anchor you pay as much as in a buoy. There is lots of places were you can anchor for free (I have been there this year and last year).

I have said that they have the right for tax for something. In a port or sheltered by it, or inside some restricted areas it is their tight to tax and that is what happens to ships.

That is not what they are taxing: They are taxing all their public waters and that as nothing to do with your example.

Yes, they can tax that, since they are providing a service, but that is not only what they are taxing. They are taxing all their public waters.

Manuel

Manuel the EU has nothing to do with this , the italian state is completely sovereign as regards tax matters. It can put taxes on anything. All EU law says is that you can't discriminate and the italians aren't.

Just what do you not get here, it's simple, within their territorial boundaries they can tax what they like. End of story. I'm not saying I agree with it , but I respect the states right to sovereignty.

Dave

[Polux]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Manuel the EU has nothing to do with this , the italian state is completely sovereign as regards tax matters. It can put taxes on anything. All EU law says is that you can't discriminate and the italians aren't.

Just what do you not get here, it's simple, within their territorial boundaries they can tax what they like. End of story. I'm not saying I agree with it , but I respect the states right to sovereignty.

Dave

Dave, I don't agree. They can tax services, not the right to be there or to pay for it and I am sure it is going to be complaints to the UE court of justice. We will see but it is not only me that has serious doubts about the issue in what regards non Italians:

MA QUESTA TASSA È LEGITTIMA O NO? IL PRECEDENTE DELLA TASSA SORU IN SARDEGNA
Una tassa che ricorda molto da vicino quella introdotta dall'ex presidente della Regione Sardegna, Renato Soru, nel 2006 e che colpiva le barche sopra i 14 metri di proprietà di non residenti in transito sull'isola. ...** bocciata prima dalla Consulta e poi dalla Corte di Giustizia Ue perché contraria ai principi della libera prestazione di servizi e della libera concorrenza, costringendo la Regione a pesanti rimborsi che stanno pesando ancora oggi sui bilanci regionali.

Barche a Motore | TASSA BARCHE Quanto si paga Confronto con la Francia VOTA Il Presidente Napolitano ha firmato il decreto legge ufficiale Salva Italia che a questo pun

Regarding this:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

That's what I was told, it's not a marina tax by the by it's a wealth tax, so you pay it irrespective of how you keep the boat.

it seems you are wrong:

I PUNTI PRINCIPALI DELLA "TASSA BARCHE" DEL DECRETO "SALVA ITALIA" DI MONTI

1- QUANDO SI PAGA: ogni giorno che la barca è in acque italiane e non rimessata a terra....

4- CHI LA PAGA: tutte le barche che navigano, sono ormeggiate o ancorate in acque o porti italiani

Barche a Motore | TASSA BARCHE Quanto si paga Confronto con la Francia VOTA Il Presidente Napolitano ha firmato il decreto legge ufficiale Salva Italia che a questo pun

Manuel

[Buena Vista]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

An alternative for the hardcore who don't want anything from "Da Gubberment" is somewhere like Somali......cheap to enter .

Cheap to enter maybe, but expensive to leave

[Buena Vista]

Hey Manuel, I will let the emoticon express my thoughts

My money is with the Italian Government it they decide (foolishly) to impose this tax, but us know how you go at International Court of Human Rights.

Brownie

[goboatingnow]

Firstly the Sardinia tax was struck down exactly like the Greek cruising tax because it only applied to foreigners , the Eu does not allow member states to discriminate against each other. The Italian tax applies to all boats irrespective of ownership. This is simply a usage tax

Note I see in the El barco piece that the tax applies to anchorages in ports not anywhere along the coast despite what you said. I see also they have removed the reduction for old boats so it's going to be quite expensive especially for motor boats.

Again I said that this tax was presented in Italy as a wealth tax ( as there are proposals to tax high performance cars and private airplanes) the form it was implemented for boats was a usage tax


Again I ask you what are you saying is wrong with this tax, it's taxes all boat users who use marina, ports or official anchorages in those ports. ( yes I accept it specifically exempts boats on the hard, I suspect there be good business in hard standing in Italy, though few marinas have much space. )

Italy has a huge boating population, and this tax is obviously targeted at them. Visiting boats make up very small number of days compared to locals. Most of these locals can't avoid this tax, so it will bring in revenue., unfortunate but true

This is a unfortunate, regressive, but completely sovereign tax.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Buena Vista

Hey Manuel, I will let the emoticon express my thoughts

My money is with the Italian Government it they decide (foolishly) to impose this tax, but us know how you go at International Court of Human Rights.

Brownie

Why is it foolish, it's aimed at Italians, most of whom can't escape the tax. Hence it will capture the biggest grouping the 10m -15m leisure boat, typically owned by an Italian resident. It will not cause any great exodus of boats nor stop most visitors as the rates are small

It mightn't be nice but it's certainly not foolish, it's just a tax on wealth in that respect, Italy also plans a tax on high performance cars and private plans as well.
Dave

[TEE]

Momma Mia, itza nodder taxa! Dat Ronald Regan Luxuri taxi lika putta buncha outa worka. Chaio Italia!!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Buena Vista

Hey Manuel, I will let the emoticon express my thoughts

My money is with the Italian Government it they decide (foolishly) to impose this tax, but us know how you go at International Court of Human Rights.

Brownie

It is not to the International Court of Human Rights but to the "Corte di Giustizia di UE" . But no, I probably will have an Italian Flag but I will leave the boat in Croatia, so no problem, but you can be sure someone will take that to EU court. we will see the result in a year or so.

Manuel

[Polux]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

..

Note I see in the El barco piece that the tax applies to anchorages in ports not anywhere along the coast despite what you said. ....

Again I ask you what are you saying is wrong with this tax, it's taxes all boat users who use marina, ports or official anchorages in those ports. ( yes I accept it specifically exempts boats on the hard, I suspect there be good business in hard standing in Italy, though few marinas have much space. )

...
Dave

No, you are wrong, probably your translator works badly. The law says:

From 1 May 2012, the pleasure craft, staying in national ports and marinas, navigable waters or are anchored in public, even if in concession to private, are subject to annual parking fee, calculated for each day or fraction thereof , the following measures: .....

And the they explain in that article:

1 - WHEN YOU PAY: every day that the boat is in Italian waters and not on land.

So it is simple: The boat is on Italian waters, never mind where, you pay.

Manuel

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Polux

No, you are wrong, probably your translator works badly. The law says:

From 1 May 2012, the pleasure craft, staying in national ports and marinas, navigable waters or are anchored in public, even if in concession to private, are subject to annual parking fee, calculated for each day or fraction thereof , the following measures: .....

And the they explain in that article:

1 - WHEN YOU PAY: every day that the boat is in Italian waters and not on land.

So it is simple: The boat is on Italian waters, never mind where, you pay.

Manuel

Well Italy has rafts of unenforced and unenforceable legislation. I'd love to see the police stopping you on the high seas with a credit card machine. My understanding was from talking to friends that have boats initially and that it will apply to designated areas as its impossible to enforce otherwise. There's simply no way to prove when you were on Italians waters and for how long. They also said it applied to boats ashore but I think thats wrong.

I beleive that's that is the correct interpretation, also Italy is a signatory to the UN law of the sea, that allows for innocent passage through national waters.

Dave