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Old 13-12-2011, 20:10   #76
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

First, this tax is better than the alternative of the whole Italian economy collapsing due to running out of money. However, I'm not sure it really matters too much in the overall personal boating industry there. The big boats are the ones that are getting killed on this tax plan.

Posted earlier, and it's half this rate for sailboats.

a) euro 5 - from 10,01m to 12m; (32.81ft to 39.37 ft, 150 euros a month for power boats, 75 euros a month for sailboats or 1825/912.5 euros a year)
b) euro 8 - 12,01m to 14m; (39.38 ft to 45.93ft, 2920 euros a year for power boats, 1460 euros for sailboats)
c) euro 10 - 14,01m to 17m; (45.94 ft to 55.77 ft, 3650 euros a year for power, 1825 for sail)
d) euro 30 - 17,01m to 24m;
e) euro 90 - 24,01 to 34m;
f) euro 207 - 34,01m to 44m;
g) euro 372 - 44,01m to 54m;
h) euro 521 - 54,01m to 64m;
I) euro 703 - above 64m. (210 ft or above would be 256,595 euros a year...yeah that is quite a lot)

euro 0 - from 1 to 9.99m

I think you will see a big jump in boats that are 9.99m and shorter. And sailboats will probably increase over powerboats in the longer lengths.

A,B,C and the 0 category will apply to most people here, and even on the $500 a month cruising plan, it isn't too bad if they provide better services and security to boaters.

I pay $3,000 USD a year in property taxes for my house, and I can't say that the thought of escaping that tax by living aboard hasn't crossed my mind. But I'm not fleeing the state or living in my car to avoid paying it.

The easiest way to collect it is if you have a yearly registration fee like my car does (I pay $55 USD a year for my car) or to calculate it when you clear in and out. But, I will agree in principal, I'm not in favor of taxing free anchorages or having a daily or monthly fee. I am a little better with a entrance fee of 25 euros or something for foreign ships in the cruising range that pays for rescue, safety, and security.

I'm not sure people would pay to pull their ships out of the water to avoid this tax, since they would still have to pay marina fees most likely. And the big boats are too expensive or impossible to pull out.
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Old 14-12-2011, 00:28   #77
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

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Why is it foolish
Dave
Simple, it is foolish because they will spend large amounts of resource and money working out the legislation, even more deciding who and how it is collected, what happens if it is avoided etc.

Regardless of your opinion to the contrary, it will affect their marine industry. Even for someone wealthy enough to own a 64m+ boat, 250K+ Euros per year is not chopped liver, neither is 33K Euros for a 25m boat and there are thousands of those.

You simply can't suck that sort of money out of discretionary spending when things are tight anyway and expect everything to go along as before.

This has all happened before in many countries (not necessarily to boats), try to bleed the perceived privaleged classes and governments soon find out that those people have options and will exercise them. When that happens, the tax take from that market declines.

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Old 14-12-2011, 01:41   #78
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

It does not make any sense to explain any politician that he is destroying by this tax an industry, they would not see this and they would not accept.

As a boat owner one only can react by moving the boat away from Italy.
We for our part have decided to transfer the boat in June 2012 to the Baltic and have already made all arangements for this.

That there is a different, colder climate in the Baltic we accept, on the other hand it is a beautiful sailing area, different to the MED but not less beautiful.
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Old 14-12-2011, 08:02   #79
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

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..The big boats are the ones that are getting killed on this tax plan.

....
The big boats would not stay in Italy. Berlusconi had already done the example and his big yacht has already went away.

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Old 14-12-2011, 08:17   #80
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

I gather that on the Adriatic side, many boats are leaving to croatia.

However this tax is not yet law, and I think many things could change before its implementation date.

Dave
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Old 14-12-2011, 15:53   #81
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

My boat is nominally 10m I don't know if it is 10.01 or 9.99 but I sure want to find out. If that means I need to take an inch of boat off I would seriously consider doing that to avoid a tax of Euro 912.5 per year. OTOH as people have said they are not worried about people like me. I think that there will be collateral damage to the boating industry.

When we were in Viareggio last year there were a lot of large power boats being built. I went into a hydraulics shop and the man must have had at least 1/2 a million Euros of inventory in hydraulic fittings sized for large yachts. Stainless, Bronze, etc machined parts. If the business dries up then the store closes and his employees suffer and his suppliers.

A use tax would seem more appropriate to me based on the value of the boat. It would be easier to collect -- Make it collectable in the same manner as car registration.
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Old 14-12-2011, 18:30   #82
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

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The Italian tax does apply to everyone just like an airport tax

Dave

It is not anything at all like an airport tax. Do they check your net worth and size of your suitcase when you enter? This is a PUNATIVE tax on the implied worth based on length. It is by default not equal or fair. Its result will be to drive away people with money to spend. Identical taxes have always backfired, resulting in less revenue and failed infrastructure.
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Old 14-12-2011, 18:44   #83
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

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Maybe, but he's being killed several times over.


It's a consumption tax, and at least you can control it's costs far better then say it was an income tax.


Dave
It is not a consumption tax. It is a property tax. It is applied by sliding scale on length. As I stated previously, there are two of us on our boat, air composting head, solar charging, sail power, 58 feet of personally restored hurricane Ivan damaged 1984 boat. I use less than 50 gallons of diesel per season. How can it be fair to gore me for 30 eruo/day to drop the hook?

If they had enacted a simple crusing permit like many countries at a reasonable flat rate we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
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Old 15-12-2011, 05:23   #84
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

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How can it be fair to gore me for 30 eruo/day to drop the hook?
WTF has "fair" got to do with it? It's Business.....and with the Govt involved doesn't even have to be sensible.

As someone cruising through Italy (rather than being a long stay non-resident ) then you are simply collateral damage. and no one ever worries about that - well, not until it happens to them and theirs.

At the end of the day it simply comes down to you (and me) deciding whether or not Italy is worth the overall cost to visit. and the answer for that may well be no.

Apart from the cash raised (or not!) from the Italians (and visitors) - will be a major data gathering excercise for the Italian Tax authorities (along with Planes and other luxury toys), to enable them to later ask someone hard questions about their income (and tax evaded).

Probably a case that most of Italy's debts could be paid off if they collected all the tax that should have been paid over the last 20 years - they won't of course.
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Old 16-12-2011, 07:35   #85
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Cmon guys. If the Italians are as effective at imposing, policing and collecting this tax as they have been in running their own financial affairs, then no one need worry too much about it.
I recall being worried stopping in Sardinia in 2007 as we'd heard of a high new tax imposed on boats over 14 metres. When I asked the marinero what happens if the finance police arrive, he shrugged, suggested we had maybe a engine problem that forced us to stop over, and that excuse would do.
I'd happily take a bet that this tax will rarely get collected if indeed it is ever effected.
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Old 16-12-2011, 15:40   #86
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

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Cmon guys. If the Italians are as effective at imposing, policing and collecting this tax as they have been in running their own financial affairs, then no one need worry too much about it.
I recall being worried stopping in Sardinia in 2007 as we'd heard of a high new tax imposed on boats over 14 metres. When I asked the marinero what happens if the finance police arrive, he shrugged, suggested we had maybe a engine problem that forced us to stop over, and that excuse would do.
I'd happily take a bet that this tax will rarely get collected if indeed it is ever effected.
Cheers
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I think you will find that italy will attempt to collect every cent of its taxes in the new few years.

dave
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Old 17-12-2011, 04:08   #87
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

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I think you will find that italy will attempt to collect every cent of its taxes in the new few years.

dave
We've both property and family in Italy and done business there also.

Some habits are hard to break, and Italian tax avoidance is pretty ingrained.

Whatever austerity measures are announced or new taxes imposed, the old taxes are still not being paid by a majority, so If they've never managed to collect the basic taxes correctly, I've no reason to think they'll collect the new ones any better.

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Old 17-12-2011, 04:37   #88
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

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?...there are two of us on our boat, air composting head, solar charging, sail power, 58 feet of personally restored hurricane Ivan damaged 1984 boat. I use less than 50 gallons of diesel per season...
Charging by length cannot be justified in any way except that it's easy.

The state govt here recently went from a flat rate boat registration to a sliding scale based on length, saying the extra revenue would go into boat ramps and safety facilities etc.

Of course the small boats that use the boat ramps (which make up the vast majority of the boating population) pay a minimal registration fee under the new arrangement, and keeled vessels (which don't use ramps and very rarely require rescuing) pay much more.

Worse, owners of older timber vessels, which tend to have a greater LOA and are always of lower value, pay among the highest fees. This is driving the heritage boat sector into oblivion.

So why have the bureaucats chosen length? Because it's easiest, and because it's the one non-variable. Value changes over time and engine size can be changed, but length cannot be changed.

Put briefly, it's a lazyman's solution and it is unfair. But, as a pleasure boat owner, have you ever tried arguing that you're being hard done by? Fact is, we're regarded as fair game and no-one ever listens...
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Old 17-12-2011, 05:21   #89
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

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It is not a consumption tax. It is a property tax. ...
Yes, it meant to be a property tax but the funny thing about it is that the Italian government want to charge it not only to their tax payers (citizens) but to all cruising boats that happen to pass on their waters

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Old 17-12-2011, 05:49   #90
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Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

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Charging by length cannot be justified in any way except that it's easy.

The state govt here recently went from a flat rate boat registration to a sliding scale based on length, saying the extra revenue would go into boat ramps and safety facilities etc.

Of course the small boats that use the boat ramps (which make up the vast majority of the boating population) pay a minimal registration fee under the new arrangement, and keeled vessels (which don't use ramps and very rarely require rescuing) pay much more.

Worse, owners of older timber vessels, which tend to have a greater LOA and are always of lower value, pay among the highest fees. This is driving the heritage boat sector into oblivion.

So why have the bureaucats chosen length? Because it's easiest, and because it's the one non-variable. Value changes over time and engine size can be changed, but length cannot be changed.

Put briefly, it's a lazyman's solution and it is unfair. But, as a pleasure boat owner, have you ever tried arguing that you're being hard done by? Fact is, we're regarded as fair game and no-one ever listens...
So what's the better solution, every boat in Italy or visits it has to undergo a valuation survey? or perhaps boat owners should be exempt from paying tax because they are special or hard done by? Get real

As stated early on, there are discounts to the taxes based on the boats age. Any other solution beyond the so called "lazymans" solution will be criticized as unmanageable.
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