Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-12-2011, 10:14   #61
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Toppenish, Wa
Posts: 21
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PamlicoTraveler View Post
When its all said and done these European Countries are going to need revenue. I think it will be realized that you aren't going to get much by taxing a boat 8 Euros a day...You aregoing to get it from having them spend 50-100 Euros a day in restaurants and purchases. Discouraging travelers when they have a lot of choices in the Med will not work.
What is paid out in cruising fees, taxes and other fees doesn't get spent with the local populace for their goods and services. Or cruisers choose to bypass the area and spend their time and euros in a country that doesn't impose exorbitant fees.

Killing the golden goose has gone since day one. The results are almost always the same in the end.
__________________

__________________
rob d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 10:49   #62
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob d

What is paid out in cruising fees, taxes and other fees doesn't get spent with the local populace for their goods and services. Or cruisers choose to bypass the area and spend their time and euros in a country that doesn't impose exorbitant fees.

Killing the golden goose has gone since day one. The results are almost always the same in the end.
Maybe, but he's being killed several times over.

Despite all the ranting, people and their assets are much less mobile then you think. Firstly forget all the hardcore cruising types, they make up a handful of boats , utterly financially and statistically irrelevant. Equally super yachts , for them this tax is a fraction of their operating costs, monetarily irrelevant.

The main group will be Italians and other foreigners who keep their boats in Italy, most Italians can't move their boats, to where, France ( yeah like find a berth at a reasonable price ) say you based near Naples, you aren't going to drive to France for your boat, the fuel and the tolls are much higher then this tax.

The practicalities are these taxes don't kill any goose, they just make the locals a little poorer. Yes some will get out of boating, but I suspect those that do, were getting out anyway due to macro financial situations. if it hits a few foreigners, so what ( they are by definition wealthy, they own a boat and holiday abroad ) , boaters are not amongst the marginal in society. Would you suggest they tax the poor instead.

It's a consumption tax, and at least you can control it's costs far better then say it was an income tax.

In general as an activity leisure boating does not suffer high taxes. I for one would not let it sway me from visiting the superb Italian coast., and I suspect it will deter few others too. I mean be price of fuel has rocketed but I still see foreign boats pumping it.

Dave
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 10:58   #63
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Again you don't understand.

....
The EU again has no say in the application of taxes on services. ...
This is a simple usage tax,...

Dave
It seems to me that it is you that don't understand.

You can tax services. They are not taxing a service. They are not taxing an usage. They are taxing the simple fact of a EC citizen to be on Italian waters.

That is not a service neither a use since the freedom of circulation gives you the right to be there. If they can tax that, they can tax also the air you breathe in Italy, providing they tax also that air to all Italians.

Manuel
__________________
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 11:13   #64
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux

It seems to me that it is you that don't understand.

You can tax services. They are not taxing a service. They are not taxing an usage. They are taxing the simple fact of a EC citizen to be on Italian waters.

That is not a service neither a use since the freedom of circulation gives you the right to be there. If they can tax that, they can tax also the air you breathe in Italy, providing they tax also that air to all Italians.

Manuel
Sorry, many countries including say Croatia can charge you to merely anchor. Countries can charge you to enter ( see entry visa costs, like in turkey ) if they wanted legally they could tax the air. Remember you are merely entitled as a Citizen of an EU member state to free movement not no cost movement. For example have a look at anchorage fees for big ships, they get charged for merely dropping anchor inside a port limits ( and some of these limits are huge). A sovereign government can tax what's it likes within its territorial limits. If will never fall foul of EU laws unless it discriminates. ( which was why the Greek cruising tax had to be withdrawn as it didn't affect Greeks)

Ps. They are taxing a usage, usage of marinas and mooring fields and anchorages.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 11:42   #65
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Again, you are mixing things:

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Sorry, many countries including say Croatia can charge you to merely anchor. Countries can charge you to enter ( see entry visa costs, like in turkey )
Croatia and Turkey are not EC countries. I cruise on Croatia, they don't charge you for anchoring unless it is a natural park or it is a concession. On a concession you can have a buoy for the same price of anchoring, but if you anchor you pay as much as in a buoy. There is lots of places were you can anchor for free (I have been there this year and last year).

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
For example have a look at anchorage fees for big ships, they get charged for merely dropping anchor inside a port limits ( and some of these limits are huge).
I have said that they have the right for tax for something. In a port or sheltered by it, or inside some restricted areas it is their tight to tax and that is what happens to ships.

That is not what they are taxing: They are taxing all their public waters and that as nothing to do with your example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
They are taxing a usage, usage of marinas and mooring fields and anchorages.
Yes, they can tax that, since they are providing a service, but that is not only what they are taxing. They are taxing all their public waters.

Manuel
__________________
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 12:53   #66
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
Again, you are mixing things:

Croatia and Turkey are not EC countries. I cruise on Croatia, they don't charge you for anchoring unless it is a natural park or it is a concession. On a concession you can have a buoy for the same price of anchoring, but if you anchor you pay as much as in a buoy. There is lots of places were you can anchor for free (I have been there this year and last year).

I have said that they have the right for tax for something. In a port or sheltered by it, or inside some restricted areas it is their tight to tax and that is what happens to ships.

That is not what they are taxing: They are taxing all their public waters and that as nothing to do with your example.

Yes, they can tax that, since they are providing a service, but that is not only what they are taxing. They are taxing all their public waters.

Manuel
Manuel the EU has nothing to do with this , the italian state is completely sovereign as regards tax matters. It can put taxes on anything. All EU law says is that you can't discriminate and the italians aren't.

Just what do you not get here, it's simple, within their territorial boundaries they can tax what they like. End of story. I'm not saying I agree with it , but I respect the states right to sovereignty.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 15:27   #67
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Manuel the EU has nothing to do with this , the italian state is completely sovereign as regards tax matters. It can put taxes on anything. All EU law says is that you can't discriminate and the italians aren't.

Just what do you not get here, it's simple, within their territorial boundaries they can tax what they like. End of story. I'm not saying I agree with it , but I respect the states right to sovereignty.

Dave
Dave, I don't agree. They can tax services, not the right to be there or to pay for it and I am sure it is going to be complaints to the UE court of justice. We will see but it is not only me that has serious doubts about the issue in what regards non Italians:

MA QUESTA TASSA È LEGITTIMA O NO? IL PRECEDENTE DELLA TASSA SORU IN SARDEGNA
Una tassa che ricorda molto da vicino quella introdotta dall'ex presidente della Regione Sardegna, Renato Soru, nel 2006 e che colpiva le barche sopra i 14 metri di proprietà di non residenti in transito sull'isola. ...fu bocciata prima dalla Consulta e poi dalla Corte di Giustizia Ue perché contraria ai principi della libera prestazione di servizi e della libera concorrenza, costringendo la Regione a pesanti rimborsi che stanno pesando ancora oggi sui bilanci regionali.


Barche a Motore | TASSA BARCHE Quanto si paga Confronto con la Francia VOTA Il Presidente Napolitano ha firmato il decreto legge ufficiale Salva Italia che a questo pun

Regarding this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
That's what I was told, it's not a marina tax by the by it's a wealth tax, so you pay it irrespective of how you keep the boat.
it seems you are wrong:

I PUNTI PRINCIPALI DELLA "TASSA BARCHE" DEL DECRETO "SALVA ITALIA" DI MONTI

1- QUANDO SI PAGA: ogni giorno che la barca è in acque italiane e non rimessata a terra.
...

4- CHI LA PAGA: tutte le barche che navigano, sono ormeggiate o ancorate in acque o porti italiani

Barche a Motore | TASSA BARCHE Quanto si paga Confronto con la Francia VOTA Il Presidente Napolitano ha firmato il decreto legge ufficiale Salva Italia che a questo pun

Manuel
__________________
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 18:07   #68
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Netsel, Marmaris
Boat: Selene 59
Posts: 130
pirate Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
An alternative for the hardcore who don't want anything from "Da Gubberment" is somewhere like Somali......cheap to enter .
Cheap to enter maybe, but expensive to leave
__________________
Buena Vista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 18:11   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Netsel, Marmaris
Boat: Selene 59
Posts: 130
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Hey Manuel, I will let the emoticon express my thoughts

My money is with the Italian Government it they decide (foolishly) to impose this tax, but us know how you go at International Court of Human Rights.

Brownie
__________________
Buena Vista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 18:13   #70
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Firstly the Sardinia tax was struck down exactly like the Greek cruising tax because it only applied to foreigners , the Eu does not allow member states to discriminate against each other. The Italian tax applies to all boats irrespective of ownership. This is simply a usage tax

Note I see in the El barco piece that the tax applies to anchorages in ports not anywhere along the coast despite what you said. I see also they have removed the reduction for old boats so it's going to be quite expensive especially for motor boats.

Again I said that this tax was presented in Italy as a wealth tax ( as there are proposals to tax high performance cars and private airplanes) the form it was implemented for boats was a usage tax


Again I ask you what are you saying is wrong with this tax, it's taxes all boat users who use marina, ports or official anchorages in those ports. ( yes I accept it specifically exempts boats on the hard, I suspect there be good business in hard standing in Italy, though few marinas have much space. )

Italy has a huge boating population, and this tax is obviously targeted at them. Visiting boats make up very small number of days compared to locals. Most of these locals can't avoid this tax, so it will bring in revenue., unfortunate but true

This is a unfortunate, regressive, but completely sovereign tax.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 18:20   #71
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buena Vista
Hey Manuel, I will let the emoticon express my thoughts

My money is with the Italian Government it they decide (foolishly) to impose this tax, but us know how you go at International Court of Human Rights.

Brownie
Why is it foolish, it's aimed at Italians, most of whom can't escape the tax. Hence it will capture the biggest grouping the 10m -15m leisure boat, typically owned by an Italian resident. It will not cause any great exodus of boats nor stop most visitors as the rates are small

It mightn't be nice but it's certainly not foolish, it's just a tax on wealth in that respect, Italy also plans a tax on high performance cars and private plans as well.
Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 18:25   #72
TEE
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 139
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Momma Mia, itza nodder taxa! Dat Ronald Regan Luxuri taxi lika putta buncha outa worka. Chaio Italia!!
__________________
TEE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 18:31   #73
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buena Vista View Post
Hey Manuel, I will let the emoticon express my thoughts

My money is with the Italian Government it they decide (foolishly) to impose this tax, but us know how you go at International Court of Human Rights.

Brownie
It is not to the International Court of Human Rights but to the "Corte di Giustizia di UE" . But no, I probably will have an Italian Flag but I will leave the boat in Croatia, so no problem, but you can be sure someone will take that to EU court. we will see the result in a year or so.

Manuel
__________________
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 18:46   #74
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
..

Note I see in the El barco piece that the tax applies to anchorages in ports not anywhere along the coast despite what you said. ....

Again I ask you what are you saying is wrong with this tax, it's taxes all boat users who use marina, ports or official anchorages in those ports.
( yes I accept it specifically exempts boats on the hard, I suspect there be good business in hard standing in Italy, though few marinas have much space. )

...
Dave
No, you are wrong, probably your translator works badly. The law says:

From 1 May 2012, the pleasure craft, staying in national ports and marinas, navigable waters or are anchored in public, even if in concession to private, are subject to annual parking fee, calculated for each day or fraction thereof , the following measures: .....

And the they explain in that article:

1 - WHEN YOU PAY: every day that the boat is in Italian waters and not on land.

So it is simple: The boat is on Italian waters, never mind where, you pay.

Manuel
__________________
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 19:21   #75
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux

No, you are wrong, probably your translator works badly. The law says:

From 1 May 2012, the pleasure craft, staying in national ports and marinas, navigable waters or are anchored in public, even if in concession to private, are subject to annual parking fee, calculated for each day or fraction thereof , the following measures: .....

And the they explain in that article:

1 - WHEN YOU PAY: every day that the boat is in Italian waters and not on land.

So it is simple: The boat is on Italian waters, never mind where, you pay.

Manuel
Well Italy has rafts of unenforced and unenforceable legislation. I'd love to see the police stopping you on the high seas with a credit card machine. My understanding was from talking to friends that have boats initially and that it will apply to designated areas as its impossible to enforce otherwise. There's simply no way to prove when you were on Italians waters and for how long. They also said it applied to boats ashore but I think thats wrong.

I beleive that's that is the correct interpretation, also Italy is a signatory to the UN law of the sea, that allows for innocent passage through national waters.

Dave
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
italy

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Newby to Ferro Yachts pulyajibon General Sailing Forum 74 05-06-2012 04:50
Spanish ISDMT (Matriculation) Tax Problem vadrouille Liveaboard's Forum 19 15-01-2012 15:47
Sales Tax - Purchase Between Two Individuals ? andreas.mehlin Dollars & Cents 30 21-11-2011 00:37
Spirit Yachts - Wood and Maintenance firestarter Monohull Sailboats 5 26-09-2011 21:05



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:06.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.