Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-12-2011, 16:33   #46
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,749
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buena Vista View Post
Not sure where you are getting your information, but every country in Europe has it's own taxes that apply to visitors, VAT, fuel tax etc, whether you have paid taxes in your own country or not. I also saw earlier in this thread, someone mentioned an airport tax that applies in UK (and at the moment they are still in Europe).

I think you may be getting confused with income tax where there is some sort of international tax equalisation scheme to avoid double taxation. The Italians can call this tax whatever they like, e.g. a ports or harbour tax, a sea safety tax, a marine envronmental tax etc so don't worry, they can bring it in if they want to.

It's not a good idea but remember taxes are formulated by politicians and public servants, neither group has a good understanding of how society works (at least not here in Australia)

Brownie
Sure, I understand your point but it is not about that I am talking about. You can charge me VAT for fuel (I am buying it) Tax for any service that I am using (airport, highway, marina) , but I, as a EC citizen have the right of free circulation on any EC country so if I am not using any service and I am only exercising my right of free circulation how can I be obliged to pay a tax?

A luxury tax is a tax over property. How can the Italian government tax my property if I am not Italian?

The Italian government has all right to impose luxury taxes over its citizens in what refers its property but would have no right of taxation over the property of citizens of other countries.

Don't take me wrong, I am not trying to be a smart ass but it seems to me that there is here a legal issue and an unacceptable limitation of the right of free circulation.

But that's a case for lawyers and the European Commission. We will see in due time

Manuel
__________________

__________________
Polux is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2011, 16:43   #47
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tasmania
Boat: VandeStadt IOR 40' - Insatiable
Posts: 2,317
Images: 91
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You mean the tourist euro? There are not many American tourists in Europe comparing with other Europeans
Actually, the tourist dollars we used to purchase Euros were Australian dollars, not US pesos
__________________

__________________
Weyalan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2011, 16:53   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Netsel, Marmaris
Boat: Selene 59
Posts: 130
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Sure, I understand your point but it is not about that I am talking about. You can charge me VAT for fuel (I am buying it) Tax for any service that I am using (airport, highway, marina) , but I, as a EC citizen have the right of free circulation on any EC country so if I am not using any service and I am only exercising my right of free circulation how can I be obliged to pay a tax?

Manuel
I think you have a very good point if you pass through Italian waters without stopping, but if you stop, I think it could be successfully argued that you are using the marine infrastructure.

Vanuatu does this. When you clear out, they simply calculate how many days since you cleared in and charge a daily rate called "Port Dues", even though most of the time you are at remote anchorages.

Don't get me wrong, in no way am I arguing for this tax (although I didn't mind the Vanuatu tax as it was only about $1 or so a day), just the inevitability that they can do it if they are stupid enough to do so.

Brownie
__________________
Buena Vista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2011, 19:28   #49
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,749
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buena Vista View Post
I think you have a very good point if you pass through Italian waters without stopping, but if you stop, I think it could be successfully argued that you are using the marine infrastructure.

Vanuatu does this. When you clear out, they simply calculate how many days since you cleared in and charge a daily rate called "Port Dues", even though most of the time you are at remote anchorages.

Don't get me wrong, in no way am I arguing for this tax (although I didn't mind the Vanuatu tax as it was only about $1 or so a day), just the inevitability that they can do it if they are stupid enough to do so.

Brownie
The legal problem here has only to do with EC citizens that have right of free circulation.

Since the last post I have read the law and it says:

From 1 May 2012, the pleasure craft, staying in national ports and marinas, navigable waters or are anchored in public, even if in concession to private, are subject to annual parking fee, calculated for each day or fraction thereof , the following measures: .....

If I stop on a marina I could be taxed but they talk about "anchored in public waters", so in reality you stop, you pay. And if I don't stop I should not have to pay but how is going to know the maritime police if I have been anchored or not? That is absolutely crazy.

If they allow Italy to carry out measures like that, the Spanish, that are also in trouble can come with something identical for cars. Imagine, you stop, even in a private car park (hotel) and you pay a parking fee, I mean to the Hotel parking and another fee to the state. You stop for going shopping and you pay, I mean even if the parking is free, you pay none the less. This has no sense at all and cannot be allowed otherwise it will bring an huge confusion to EC free circulation rights and applicable laws.

Even in what regards only Italians, the law is as stupid as it can get. All the guys with big boats that would pay a lot will just move their boats to Croatia, Greece, Spain or France and will not pay a dime, because you only pay if you have the boat in Italy, even if it has an Italian flag. Crazy stuff

All the Italians would have the right to have the boat on land (not paying anything) put the boat on the water and go non stop to Croatia or Corsica and South of France stay there cruising for the season, return directly non stop, putting the boat again out of the water and pay nothing. How crazy is that law? What would happen to the Italian Nautical tourism?

For the ones that read Italian or can use a translator here is the law:

La Manovra "Salva-Italia" e la nautica: Art.16-Disposizioni per la tassazione di auto di lusso, imbarcazioni ed aerei
__________________
Polux is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2011, 19:40   #50
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,305
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weyalan View Post
Actually, the tourist dollars we used to purchase Euros were Australian dollars, not US pesos
US pesos .................. that was funny
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 05:25   #51
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux

You are guessing or you know what you are talking about?

And if you have an annual contract but have the boat out of water for maintenance for 9 months?
That's what I was told, it's not a marina tax by the by it's a wealth tax, so you pay it irrespective of how you keep the boat.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 05:30   #52
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux

Sure, I understand your point but it is not about that I am talking about. You can charge me VAT for fuel (I am buying it) Tax for any service that I am using (airport, highway, marina) , but I, as a EC citizen have the right of free circulation on any EC country so if I am not using any service and I am only exercising my right of free circulation how can I be obliged to pay a tax?

A luxury tax is a tax over property. How can the Italian government tax my property if I am not Italian?

The Italian government has all right to impose luxury taxes over its citizens in what refers its property but would have no right of taxation over the property of citizens of other countries.

Don't take me wrong, I am not trying to be a smart ass but it seems to me that there is here a legal issue and an unacceptable limitation of the right of free circulation.

But that's a case for lawyers and the European Commission. We will see in due time

Manuel
You are misreading EU law. Free circulation does not mean what you think it does, it does not mean "no cost". ( the airport tax being a good example). Authorities are ( and do ) charge all sorts of fees to boats especially visiting commercial ships. Let's just call this new tax a " lights charge" hey presto fully legal.

You pay all sorts of taxes when travelling including hotel taxes etc etc. free circulation means you cannot be prevented by law from travelling to these countries , it does not mean you can do so for nothing.
Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 06:23   #53
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
You are misreading EU law. Free circulation does not mean what you think it does, it does not mean "no cost". ( the airport tax being a good example). Authorities are ( and do ) charge all sorts of fees to boats especially visiting commercial ships. Let's just call this new tax a " lights charge" hey presto fully legal.

You pay all sorts of taxes when travelling including hotel taxes etc etc. free circulation means you cannot be prevented by law from travelling to these countries , it does not mean you can do so for nothing.
Dave
I thought the idea was that other EU citizens had to be treated exactly the same as own citizens. For the airport tax they are exactly the same - just that visitors more likely to be the ones paying.

Not to say that a Boat Tax (whatever called) on visitors is not doable, including legally. FWIW (zilch!) I would go for a simple boating permit within Italian waters - for those where the ownership resides in Italy and the owner is already a taxpayer it would in effect be free (or nominal cost) as the services provided regarded as paid for by the owner from his taxes.......... those owned / visiting from outside Italy would get a month free and then the charges would kick in.....or they can also join the Italian Tax system

- IMO the main difference between success and failure (i.e getting more tax in than it costs to collect / enforce and not decimating the related boat industries) is ensuring neighbouring countries do much the same thing.
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 06:43   #54
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I thought the idea was that other EU citizens had to be treated exactly the same as own citizens. For the airport tax they are exactly the same - just that visitors more likely to be the ones paying.

Not to say that a Boat Tax (whatever called) on visitors is not doable, including legally. FWIW (zilch!) I would go for a simple boating permit within Italian waters - for those where the ownership resides in Italy and the owner is already a taxpayer it would in effect be free (or nominal cost) as the services provided regarded as paid for by the owner from his taxes.......... those owned / visiting from outside Italy would get a month free and then the charges would kick in.....or they can also join the Italian Tax system

- IMO the main difference between success and failure (i.e getting more tax in than it costs to collect / enforce and not decimating the related boat industries) is ensuring neighbouring countries do much the same thing.
The Italian tax does apply to everyone just like an airport tax

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 06:57   #55
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The Italian tax does apply to everyone just like an airport tax

Dave
Oops, I missed that

Then (IMO ) a slam dunk on being legal.
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 07:33   #56
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,749
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
That's what I was told, it's not a marina tax by the by it's a wealth tax, so you pay it irrespective of how you keep the boat.

Dave
If it was a wealth tax they could only apply it to Italians, not to others that already pay "health tax" in their EC countries.

Not irrespective of how you keep the boat, unless they change the law:

From 1 May 2012, the pleasure craft, staying in national ports and marinas, navigable waters or are anchored in public, even if in concession to private, are subject to annual parking fee, calculated for each day or fraction thereof , the following measures: .....

If you have the boat out of water you don't pay, if you are Italian and have a flagged Italian boat but have the boat abroad you don't pay. Dumb law.

Manuel
__________________
Polux is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 07:41   #57
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux

If it was a wealth tax they could only apply it to Italians, not to others that already pay "health tax" in their EC countries.

Not irrespective of how you keep the boat, unless they change the law:

From 1 May 2012, the pleasure craft, staying in national ports and marinas, navigable waters or are anchored in public, even if in concession to private, are subject to annual parking fee, calculated for each day or fraction thereof , the following measures: .....

If you have the boat out of water you don't pay, if you are Italian and have a flagged Italian boat but have the boat abroad you don't pay. Dumb law.

Manuel
Don't see what's dumb about it. Well see if the tax applies to out of the water ( "staying in a port ", might be quite widely interpreted.

As to yachts abroad, unlike the US, most European countries do not tax you on income or assets abroad that are not repatriated . Those are the remit of the country in which you keep those assts. the French marinas along the Rivera will do well from the super yachts next year I think.

Dave .
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 07:51   #58
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,749
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
You are misreading EU law. Free circulation does not mean what you think it does, it does not mean "no cost". ( the airport tax being a good example). Authorities are ( and do ) charge all sorts of fees to boats especially visiting commercial ships. Let's just call this new tax a " lights charge" hey presto fully legal.

You pay all sorts of taxes when travelling including hotel taxes etc etc. free circulation means you cannot be prevented by law from travelling to these countries , it does not mean you can do so for nothing.
Dave
Outside your own country were you are taxed by your income you can only be taxed for services. This is not a service. Staying in a marina or on buoy on a mooring is a service. Paying for anchoring on any public water in Italy (out of any reservation) is paying for nothing and it will prevent in fact free circulation.

Tat's like having to pay a tax in England every-time you stop a car anywhere, public roads, on a field owned by you or even on your own garage. If you want to tax cars, well, tax the cars not tax parking them in any place, including public and private.

What the Italian government pretend is a luxury tax for Italians owning a boat but they want that all Europeans and everybody owning a boat and sailing in Italy to pay that tax too, to them. I don't have to pay a luxury tax over my boat to the Italians, if I have it is in my own country.

I hope that they don't go away with this because that would create a precedent regarding EC citizens being taxed for a non delivered service out of their own country and that means the biggest legal confusion. People would be taxed just to be there on a public place, not for owning a boat because tax over that can only be payed where they pay taxes over property and income, their own country.

Manuel
__________________
Polux is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 09:40   #59
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux

Outside your own country were you are taxed by your income you can only be taxed for services. This is not a service. Staying in a marina or on buoy on a mooring is a service. Paying for anchoring on any public water in Italy (out of any reservation) is paying for nothing and it will prevent in fact free circulation.

Tat's like having to pay a tax in England every-time you stop a car anywhere, public roads, on a field owned by you or even on your own garage. If you want to tax cars, well, tax the cars not tax parking them in any place, including public and private.

What the Italian government pretend is a luxury tax for Italians owning a boat but they want that all Europeans and everybody owning a boat and sailing in Italy to pay that tax too, to them. I don't have to pay a luxury tax over my boat to the Italians, if I have it is in my own country.

I hope that they don't go away with this because that would create a precedent regarding EC citizens being taxed for a non delivered service out of their own country and that means the biggest legal confusion. People would be taxed just to be there on a public place, not for owning a boat because tax over that can only be payed where they pay taxes over property and income, their own country.

Manuel
Again you don't understand.

Firstly eu tax law is not harmonised, countries can and do what they like.

What they can't do is discriminate against a product that is in free circulation within the EU. So Italy for example could not apply a special tax to the importation of boats ( other then that already agreed with the commission). However it could apply any rate of vat ( above the 15% minimum) to boats. ( ie all boats)

The EU again has no say in the application of taxes on services. If the UK wanted to tax public car parks it could go right ahead and do so. If fact several countries ( Ireland comes to mind) have proposed a tax on car parking spaces that are provided for you on a regular basis. )

Shipping worldwide irrespective of country, pay all sort of government taxes when they dock. Why should YOU be exempt.

This is a simple usage tax, ie a bit like the government deciding to tax cinema tickets, irrespective of being a native or foreigner , you would then pay the tax when you went to the cinema in that country. What happens to you in your own country is irrelevant.

There are many arguments against this tax, such as displacement, enforcement, etc but not some EU nonsense. Anyway at the rate were going will there be an EU ?

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2011, 09:54   #60
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Italy to Impose New Tax on Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Outside your own country were you are taxed by your income you can only be taxed for services. This is not a service. Staying in a marina or on buoy on a mooring is a service. Paying for anchoring on any public water in Italy (out of any reservation) is paying for nothing and it will prevent in fact free circulation.
I think you may be getting confused about how the Tax is being spun to the world (a "wealth tax" on the rich ) and the reality of it being a simple use tax, based on the boats location (in Italy).

You do have plenty of options for a method of paying for the services you encounter / need / want - go somewhere else.........in SE Asia likely that rather than the Govt charging large fees and then paying it's employees a decent wage (as we do in the West) that instead you get to pay some of the Govt employees direct . Although out of sight you do also get the benefit of the locals being kept in line by the Govt (success and methods vary on that) and that ain't "free"......otherwise you would be pretty certain to wake up dead. EU countries not fundamentally different on that last one.

An alternative for the hardcore who don't want anything from "Da Gubberment" is somewhere like Somali......cheap to enter .
__________________

David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
italy

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Newby to Ferro Yachts pulyajibon General Sailing Forum 74 05-06-2012 04:50
Spanish ISDMT (Matriculation) Tax Problem vadrouille Liveaboard's Forum 19 15-01-2012 15:47
Sales Tax - Purchase Between Two Individuals ? andreas.mehlin Dollars & Cents 30 21-11-2011 00:37
Spirit Yachts - Wood and Maintenance firestarter Monohull Sailboats 5 26-09-2011 21:05



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:28.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.