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Old 01-11-2011, 11:10   #16
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

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When we first sailed in Europe I tried to get an ICC from the RYA (I'm American) but they only issue them to residents of the UK. I did get a "ICC" from the ASA in the US and it looks pretty official. But in 3 years of sailing in Europe no one ever asked for it.
That situation has changed, you can now as an American , apply for the ICC test via the RYA ( and I believe the ISA and IYT). BUT, as far as I'm aware they dont recognise any certificates only their own. That means you have to do the ICC direct assessment test on your own boat, or at a RYA test centre.

Its a bit of a catch 22. Theres no cross national recognition of certificates in teh ICC system , so if you have an RYA,ISA or IYT day skipper or greater cert then you can apply and be given a full ICC ( ex- CEVNI) without further examination.

Countries cannot demand a national cert your country doesnt supply. Hence US boaters will not be asked to produce an ICC. You CAN be asked to produce a valid national competency cert is one exists.

On of the areas of confusion, is that several Nations have non-official or non mandatory certificates ( UK, US, Ireland etc) are some officials beleive that since some of these countries issue ICCs you SHOULD have one.

I wouldnt worry about it. Have some form of PHOTO based competency cert if at all possible.

Dave
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:13   #17
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

". As it was, they didn't have one and only some fast talking and "
I suspect Italians in NJ or FL would have the same problem, as both of those states want to see papers (and in NJ there's no grandfathering) if someone is operating a boat with an engine.
Our state certifications are, after all, issued by Sovereign States which puts them on the same legal par as national certification from any newfangled EU nation. Sovereign State to sovereign state.
The man in the pretty uniform may have some trouble grasping that, or more likely, pretend to have some trouble. Here or there.
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:17   #18
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

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". As it was, they didn't have one and only some fast talking and "
I suspect Italians in NJ or FL would have the same problem, as both of those states want to see papers (and in NJ there's no grandfathering) if someone is operating a boat with an engine.
Our state certifications are, after all, issued by Sovereign States which puts them on the same legal par as national certification from any newfangled EU nation. Sovereign State to sovereign state.
The man in the pretty uniform may have some trouble grasping that, or more likely, pretend to have some trouble. Here or there.
While it may be amusing for you to think so, US states are not Sovereign in the manner as accepted by anyone else. The USof A is the soverign state.

as to "Newfangled EU nation", the EU is a collection of sovereign states, pooling soverignity in certain areas, I suspect youll find some of these states have been around for a long long time......!!!!

but hey its a nice argument.#

The problem of course is , irrespective of what you or I beleive, the "man in the pretty uniform" has ( a) police backing (b) legal backing (c) you in his country. all other agruments are merely for chatrooms.

Dave
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Old 01-11-2011, 13:00   #19
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

"US states are not Sovereign in the manner as accepted by anyone else. "
To the contrary, police in the EU and all over the world acknowledge US States, whether they are aware of it or not. Got an international drivers license? Got a French drivers license? You can't have a US drivers license, because only the STATES issue them.
Yes, in some areas, sovereignty is still reserved to the states. That's why this is the Federal Republic of The United States. As opposed to our first nation, which was a Confederation. In a federal republic, member states keep some of their pre-existing sovereignty. Uniforms here in the US don't always understand that, so one can hardly expect them to know about it overseas. That doesn't change the basis of the matter.
Just try getting a "US" driver's license, then tell me that's any different from a "US" boating certification. Maybe there should be one--but there isn't, and hasn't been.

Our Civil War was about States Rights versus the Republic. And that same bone of contention is why ObamaCare is being taken to the US Supreme Court now. The issue is far from settled, and state sovereignty hasn't been abolished.
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Old 01-11-2011, 13:18   #20
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

We all know a piece of paper proves nothing about competence. However it does keep beurocrats happy....and eventually I presume insurance companies. I suspect that in Australia at some point I will have to get a powerboat licence that will "prove" my competence to operate my sailboat, simply because as yet there is no sailboat licecnce. We just have to let officials tick all their boxes and then their happy.

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Old 02-11-2011, 05:19   #21
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

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". newfangled EU nation.
Whatever the detail of the contentious relationship between US States and the USA, the nations of Europe (which is not the same as the EU) are mostly much older. And those which are relatively new, have a complex identity, sometimes existing as nations and sometimes subjected to other empires (Macedonia, anyone? Italy?) The question of the future of the nation state is a very vexed one here in Europe, but talk of new-fangled is somewhat inaccurate.
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Old 02-11-2011, 05:33   #22
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Re: International Certificate of Competentcy

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Originally Posted by jim_thomsen View Post
When we first sailed in Europe I tried to get an ICC from the RYA (I'm American) but they only issue them to residents of the UK. I did get a "ICC" from the ASA in the US and it looks pretty official. But in 3 years of sailing in Europe no one ever asked for it.
This policy was recently changed by the RYA specifically to accomodate North Americans.

See: How to apply for an ICC | The ICC and Proof of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Information & Advice | RYA

"The RYA is also permitted to issue the ICC to the nationals of non-UNECE countries and nationals of the USA and Canada (which by a quirk of history are UNECE member states)."
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Old 02-11-2011, 05:39   #23
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"US states are not Sovereign in the manner as accepted by anyone else. "
To the contrary, police in the EU and all over the world acknowledge US States, whether they are aware of it or not. Got an international drivers license? Got a French drivers license? You can't have a US drivers license, because only the STATES issue them.
Yes, in some areas, sovereignty is still reserved to the states. That's why this is the Federal Republic of The United States. As opposed to our first nation, which was a Confederation. In a federal republic, member states keep some of their pre-existing sovereignty. Uniforms here in the US don't always understand that, so one can hardly expect them to know about it overseas. That doesn't change the basis of the matter.
Just try getting a "US" driver's license, then tell me that's any different from a "US" boating certification. Maybe there should be one--but there isn't, and hasn't been.

Our Civil War was about States Rights versus the Republic. And that same bone of contention is why ObamaCare is being taken to the US Supreme Court now. The issue is far from settled, and state sovereignty hasn't been abolished.
Dave is actually right -- the sovereignty of the states of the U.S. is not recognized in international law. Some elements of federalism -- state driver's licenses, for example -- do not amount to state sovereignty.

We fought a very bloody war over this in the 1860's. Unfortunately, we lost . . .

By the way, Canada, Germany and Russia, to name just three countries, have more federalism than the U.S. does. That is to say, the Canadian provinces, the German Bundeslaender, and Russian oblasty and republics, have more independence than the U.S. states do. So Dave is right -- state sovereignty in the U.S. is gone with the wind . . .
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Old 10-11-2011, 00:47   #24
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

The only US boating certification that I am aware of would be a United States Coast Guard Merchant Mariner Credential. Now issued in a nice red vinyl covered packet that looks like a passport, with an inside sleeve to hold your Transportation Worker Identity Card with your biometric chip (required even if you never hold a job as a merchant mariner). Twice in Greece last summer we were asked for sailing competency credentials when clearing into a port and each time our USCG licenses were accepted without question. Hopefully this will also be the case throughout the rest of the EU countries of the Med as we have no intention of also obtaining the ICC.

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Old 10-11-2011, 07:06   #25
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

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Originally Posted by svBeBe View Post
The only US boating certification that I am aware of would be a United States Coast Guard Merchant Mariner Credential. Now issued in a nice red vinyl covered packet that looks like a passport, with an inside sleeve to hold your Transportation Worker Identity Card with your biometric chip (required even if you never hold a job as a merchant mariner). Twice in Greece last summer we were asked for sailing competency credentials when clearing into a port and each time our USCG licenses were accepted without question. Hopefully this will also be the case throughout the rest of the EU countries of the Med as we have no intention of also obtaining the ICC.

Judy
Judy,
For sure that USCG license will be accepted elsewhere. If they ever ask, it is for proof of compency - not specific qualifications.
Enjoy.
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:53   #26
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

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Dave is actually right
Dockhead, Im storing that quote for the future

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Originally Posted by svBeBe
...... Twice in Greece last summer we were asked for sailing competency credentials when clearing into a port and each time our USCG licenses were accepted without question. Hopefully this will also be the case throughout the rest of the EU countries of the Med as we have no intention of also obtaining the ICC.
Greece and Croatia are really the only two countries that occasionally look for some form of competence, Any reasonably looking cert will do, it doesn't have to be an ICC. In reality there's no bureaucracy of any significance cruising the med.

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Old 10-11-2011, 11:23   #27
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

Have been researching the ICC requirements for US boats as well and there is certainly a lot of conflicting information and certainly differences in actual practise vs theory.

In general, unless one runs into an overzealous official, it does not seem that US flagged vessels will need ICC for cruising Europe UNLESS you plan to do the inland waterways where a CEVNI endorsement is required which of course means one needs the ICC first to get the endorsement.

I have heard that the CEVNI docs are required and actually checked when applying for the permits to cruise the inland waters but this is anecdotal only. Anyone have any personal experience with this?
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:12   #28
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

My experience is only reported by other europeans cruising inland waterways, but they are clear that the CEVNI is checked.
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:23   #29
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

Yes for inland cruising the CEVNI is checked and IS required by all pleasure users.

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Old 11-11-2011, 04:28   #30
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Re: International Certificate of Competency

in 17 yrs i have only been asked once for some form of sailing qualifications and that was this yr in june in turkey when i was clearing in at kas but have never been asked any where else in the med
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