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Old 07-03-2016, 08:57   #91
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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No it is not. Not compared with India or China and if you understood that I was talking about China or Russia to be entering EU on the next years you have misunderstood what I was saying.

The EU is the larger economy. The only thing India and China is larger is low tech manufacturing. It's changing but the EU is easily on a similar scale.

I talked about Democracy and civil rights on both countries as essential for that to happen and it will not be on a near future but you seem to forget that Europe was very different only 26 years before German reunification and Russian federation. All the East of Europe was not democratic neither respecting civil rights.

Eastern Europe was escaping Russion rule. Russia is currently going the opposite way reclaiming parts of eastern europe.

Things in what regards history tend to go faster and faster and I would not believe that it would take more than 25 years to Russia and Turkey to be a part of EU.

Turkey...yes but only by the EU cooking the books because they want the strategic position. Russia...far less likely and even 25yrs is so far out as to be irrelevant to this subject.

Russia has a lot more to do with Europe, it is in fact much more European than Turkey, not only by territory but by culture. And you bet that it has all to do with a geo strategic interest that reflects itself on culture but mainly in economic power and overall power. I believe that the Geo strategical interest of Europe lays with its reunion under a democratic federation and with time Russia will reach the same conclusion.

Russia is it's own animal. Peter the Great tried...and failed to pull it into the European world.
In terms of this thread, new world order stuff that might happen in a quarter century is irrelevant if the UK decides to break away in the next year or two and others follow.
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Old 07-03-2016, 09:11   #92
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Russia has more in common with China and India right now than with the EU (look up BRICS)
and the EU hasn't let democracy or civil rights interfere with western objectives in Turkey or elsewhere. it's not on their agenda.
....
You are wrong on two counts: Democracy and civil rights don't exclude relations from EU with other countries but are basic requisites for other countries to enter EU.

Russia and China don't share any cultural bonds. China has a very strong culture that has nothing to do with Europe. Russia in what regards culture was always a part of Europe (and a great part of its population lives in the European part of Russia).

You seem to confound political regimes with culture. Seem to forgot that Karl Marx, the father of communism was German and that was there that culturally Communism was born. Also that Germany that is today a benchmark in what regards democracy, was on the past century a extreme right anti-democratic country.

Slovakia, Check Republic, Lithuania, Hungary, Croatia, Poland and others were 26 years ago communist countries and today are democratic countries, that Russia is a Catholic country (again) with a Slavic population genetically very close to some of the countries that today form the EU.

Russia has nothing in common with China, except partially a political regime and it has much to do with Europe, being part of it in territory and culture.

Regarding yacht culture too. The main Yacht German magazine has a Russian edition that is hugely popular in Russia and we can see more and more Russians sailing on the med.
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Old 07-03-2016, 09:34   #93
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Not true at all. My cousin, a resident in Spain (Andalucia), was found to have cancer, and could not get treatment for it in Spain. She had to come back to the UK to be able to get treatment (looks to have been successful, I am pleased to say).

This was October 2015 . . . . .

My friend in Gran Canaria fell seriously ill, was in intensive care there for several months, and the only reason he had care in Gran Canaria, was his holiday insurance covered him.

If it hadn't been for that, he'd have had to be flown home.
You are talking about Spain, I was talking about Portugal. As I had said rules and what is offered regarding health care to other EU members is different according different EU countries, even if all are obliged to provide basic care. In Spain:

"Foreigners who are not legally resident in Spain may receive healthcare in cases of emergency, pregnancy, birth and postnatal care. Only foreign children will receive the same healthcare as Spanish people."

In Portugal:
Who qualifies?

The following are beneficiaries of the SNS:
  • All Portuguese citizens;
  • National citizens of EU Member States, EEA Member States and Switzerland, under the terms of the applicable European Community regulations;
  • Foreign citizens resident in Portugal under reciprocal arrangements;
  • Stateless persons resident in Portugal.
The SNS is the national health service the one that provides health services to Portuguese citizens and a EU resident in Portugal has the right to the same service as Portuguese citizens regarding the SNS.
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:05   #94
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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It was about that when it was created many years ago, now:

"According to Eurobarometer (2013), 69% of EU citizens are in favour of direct elections of the President of the European Commission; ..
Two thirds of respondents think that the EU (instead of a national government alone), should make decisions on foreign policy. ...
...A large majority of the people for whom the EU conjures up a positive image support the further development of the EU into a federation of nation states (56% versus 27%)."
Yes, I guess those poll results are real. My point however is that some people want out of EU, while some want a strong central government that can overrule the local governments. Some may also wish their country to continue cooperation with others without leaving EU, and without moving any more power from the independent countries to Brussels. I think this is one key topic that causes friction within EU and between people with different kind of dreams.
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:18   #95
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Regarding yacht culture too. The main Yacht German magazine has a Russian edition that is hugely popular in Russia and we can see more and more Russians sailing on the med.
I think I'd put that down to an improved economical distribution and freedom for more people since the Wall came down rather than any Cultural/Political influences from Europe.. and good marketing re the boats.
As for Russian tourism.. they've been active tourists in Pakistan and India for decades.. before the Wall and western restrictions came down.
If Russia enters the EU you can be damn sure it won't be Germany and France calling the shots anymore..
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:27   #96
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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I'm not sure where the idea that EU citizens' opinion matters comes from?

Just look at what happened with the Constitution referendum ... That NO was pretty darn clear, but all they did was find a way around it.

We (boat people ) were talking about the possible Brexit last night. Now here's a group with a very political diverse background and with the exception of 2 who said they don't really care about it one way or the other, all just want out.

What seems to have been 'the last drop' for many, I was surprised to learn, is the EU trying to force TTIP down our throats. People feel powerless against it, and most agree that no matter what, this agreement will happen.

It'll be interesting to see what happens over the next few years, as it really does seem more and more European citizens no longer support the EU.

But, for the foreseeable future, I still see no real impact for cruisers
What is TTIP?
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:35   #97
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What is TTIP?
Two
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In
Power
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:42   #98
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Yes, I guess those poll results are real. My point however is that some people want out of EU, while some want a strong central government that can overrule the local governments. Some may also wish their country to continue cooperation with others without leaving EU, and without moving any more power from the independent countries to Brussels. I think this is one key topic that causes friction within EU and between people with different kind of dreams.
Yes, certainly there are different opinions about that. I was just talking about the vast majority and at some point minorities will have to join the way most want for Europe (Federalism) or opt out, as may well be the case with UK.

What cannot be tolerated are minorities trying to block what the majority want and that's what has been happening with UK for a long time.

Democracy is the rule in Europe and democracy is the will of the majority, specially when that will is superior to 2/3 that is the percentage normally demanded to change structural rules, like a constitution for instance.
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:58   #99
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Two
Twatts
In
Power
Now why couldn't i think of that? Interesting thread that I'm not going to jump into I don't think? thanks for the translation Boaty
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Old 07-03-2016, 11:28   #100
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pirate Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

Defending Democracy in Europe.. that'll be a 1st for Portugal and Switzerland..
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Old 07-03-2016, 11:32   #101
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Yes, certainly there are different opinions about that. I was just talking about the vast majority and at some point minorities will have to join the way most want for Europe (Federalism) or opt out, as may well be the case with UK.

What cannot be tolerated are minorities trying to block what the majority want and that's what has been happening with UK for a long time.

Democracy is the rule in Europe and democracy is the will of the majority, specially when that will is superior to 2/3 that is the percentage normally demanded to change structural rules, like a constitution for instance.
I'm not so sure that majority of EU or UK citizens would want federalism. It would be interesting to see the results of this kind of polls.

Note that there is a conflict of interest also between those whose career is linked to the central office vs. general public. I.e. politicians, civil servants, lobbyists, large corporations etc. are typically in favour of making the central office bigger, while others have less interest in that direction. This means that there is also an interest to present the general public opinion as if it would always support the federation oriented initiatives.

Democracy is the path to take. We'll let UK voters make up their mind and support UK in acting accordingly, and we will support their decisions, whatever they are. Right? (I guess EU is not yet so centralized that it could and would ban this kind of acts in UK. )
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Old 07-03-2016, 12:16   #102
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes, certainly there are different opinions about that. I was just talking about the vast majority and at some point minorities will have to join the way most want for Europe (Federalism) or opt out, as may well be the case with UK.

What cannot be tolerated are minorities trying to block what the majority want and that's what has been happening with UK for a long time.

Democracy is the rule in Europe and democracy is the will of the majority, specially when that will is superior to 2/3 that is the percentage normally demanded to change structural rules, like a constitution for instance.
The problem with the EU and the reason that the UK needs to wants various opt outs can be attributed to 6 letters...

F
R
A
N
C
E

Stupidity like the CAP that pampers the French famers and the complete idiocy of moving the EU parliament to Strasbourg for 4 days a month to give the local hookers some business are two examples of EU waste that cannot be stopped because the French prevent any significant reforms.

I'm sure that the British would be much more accepting of the EU if they could see that significant reforms had been made to the way the EU works over the years they have been part of it.
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Old 07-03-2016, 12:29   #103
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One can tell the stay versus the leave by the quality of their boats I find..
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Old 07-03-2016, 12:38   #104
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Defending Democracy in Europe.. that'll be a 1st for Portugal and Switzerland..
Well, it seem that ones can learn and others forget. The only reason US wants UK in the EU is to prevent or slow down a federal Europe. What feels like to be just a pawn on the big game?
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Old 07-03-2016, 12:55   #105
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Well, it seem that ones can learn and others forget. The only reason US wants UK in the EU is to prevent or slow down a federal Europe. What feels like to be just a pawn on the big game?
And there was I naively thinking it was because it could maintain its commercial and political powerbase.. as we are the only ones who stand fast.. where others fall by the wayside
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