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Old 05-03-2016, 07:25   #46
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

In this thread I hold a new found appreciation for them who have contributed. As an outside observer (USA citizen) I am glad to see you coming to your senses. BTW: Neither I, nor any I know, are gloating. We have our own f-f-f-frustrasting clown show to attend.


Firstly, it is credited to Ian, the OP, for bringing this important subject. Athene then seems to want to hide his head in the sand as he hopes for a continuation of the status quo. his is understandable since he has going concerns to administer. But yo, that is at the individual level. Yes, there will be casualties. Best prepare not to be one. Boatman then swiftly parries by saying it is dead. Good riddance sez I.


Thunderbird makes an absolutely fabulous pronouncement that death is necessary to foster new ideas. But I ask, is going back to the old tried and true (pre EU) a foregone conclusion? So typical of progressive politics is forward, always forward yet nary consideration of that which served well for generation upon generation. It is as if it has now become who can forward think more so than the other fellow. A new rule in the merry auld game, as it were.


Ribbit gets to it in #10 and lays it out in plain English. Nothing in his comments to disagree with. Further along it is introduced that the states provide immunity to themselves. This should not be a surprise. But unless one were to think directly of it they may overlook it. Of course they would seek indemnity.

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Old 05-03-2016, 08:03   #47
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

(weird, apparently I can no longer edit my post. Therefore I continue here.)

I am a bit perplexed by Valhalla360's comment (#14) which seems to suggest a country would qualify for 3rd world status by dint of leaving. Perhaps he has specific countries in mind. I must be missing something or not reading it right.


Boatman mentions the boon to individual economies in a post EU environment while another (forgive me, I do not see which commenter at this time) bemoans what of the treaties. To the latter I say the treaties would be brokered, remain in effect as to sovereign states.


LizzyBelle does have a point but it is a fallacy. It is not merely a percentage but per capita. Yes, one is 'penalized' for a higher income. That's one way of looking at it. Welcome to the world. This all sounds exactly like my well educated high net worth friend who laments paying a school district tax even though he has no children. Ad nauseum. I find myself in the same boat except in steerage. The price of society, heh.
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Old 05-03-2016, 08:49   #48
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

Boatman mentions the boon to individual economies in a post EU environment while another (forgive me, I do not see which commenter at this time) bemoans what of the treaties. To the latter I say the treaties would be brokered, remain in effect as to sovereign states.


Of Merkel, Hollande, and Cameron; Merkel is a communist. You read it here. Her pograms are horrendous. The witch ought to be strung out in quarters. Hollande is a bit more suave but still of the same clothe. In defiance of all rationale, Cameron is gunning for a tie with Hollande. WTF UK. Tyranny at it's finest. And you thought Blair did you in. That don't wash, sometimes you have to have a good look in the mirror and admit it. This is that time. Particularly maddening is the meddlesome 'refugee crisis' at this same time. They are not refugees and it is not a crisis except that it is by design.


Who knows which state will be the lynch pin. It could be the powerhouse which is the UK or it could be a confederation of, say the Slavic states. Merkel must be ever trying to keep a straight face. Hollande is a lapdog, beholden. Utterly confounding is Cameron. I say do it. It was a failure from the start. Much like our NAFTA. It was, is, will always be BS. We, like you, got sold out. Now holding an empty bag with a price tag. The world will still revolve but where she ends is anyone's guess. There will always be those little foxes which are not large enough to wipe a state but can and will wipe an individual or class of individuals.


In any case, however it happens, your cousins across the pond would be glad to see you have real sovereignty return. As for the effects on yachtsmen, Boatman answered that in his first post to this thread. Mark this as silly comments from a nearly disinterested outside observer.
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:05   #49
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

I'm not sure where the idea that EU citizens' opinion matters comes from?

Just look at what happened with the Constitution referendum ... That NO was pretty darn clear, but all they did was find a way around it.

We (boat people ) were talking about the possible Brexit last night. Now here's a group with a very political diverse background and with the exception of 2 who said they don't really care about it one way or the other, all just want out.

What seems to have been 'the last drop' for many, I was surprised to learn, is the EU trying to force TTIP down our throats. People feel powerless against it, and most agree that no matter what, this agreement will happen.

It'll be interesting to see what happens over the next few years, as it really does seem more and more European citizens no longer support the EU.

But, for the foreseeable future, I still see no real impact for cruisers
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:16   #50
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Originally Posted by Jason Flare View Post
Interesting that the country labeled, "Hungary" is not allowed autonomy.
Don't really understand what you mean. Countries when the enter EU have their sovereignty voluntarily limited by treaties, short of an EU constitution, being the main one the Lisbon treaty. That limitation of sovereignty applies to all and it is necessary for all to have common rules and respect common values.

When a country enters EU (if it wants to enter) signs those treaties, that are translated in laws and is obliged to respect them. That is the foundation of the union.

"The European Union is based on the rule of law. This means that every action taken by the EU is founded on treaties that have been approved voluntarily and democratically by all EU member countries....

EU law - which has equal force with national law - confers rights and obligations on the authorities in each member country, as well as individuals and businesses. The authorities in each member country are responsible for implementing EU legislation in national law and enforcing it correctly, and they must guarantee citizens’ rights under these laws...


One of the EU’s main goals is to promote human rights both internally and around the world. Human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights: these are the core values of the EU. Since the Lisbon Treaty's entry in force in 2009, the EU's Charter of Fundamental Rights brings all these rights together in a single document. The EU's institutions are legally bound to uphold them, as are EU governments whenever they apply EU law.

EU case-law is made up of judgments from the European Union's Court of Justice, which interpret EU legislation.


EUROPA - EU law
EUROPA - The EU in brief
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:19   #51
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Britain is the biggest and most profitable market that the EU has.

They pi$$ us off at their peril, and if they are stupid enough to do it, we will have to make all the stuff they refuse to sell us, and that will be loads of new industries to replace the ones destroyed by the EEC/EU, and masses of new jobs as a result. Heck we might even be able to make an aircraft carrier worthy of the name once again, instead of those ridiculous and chronically overpriced things assembled by the French.

PS People forget about things like European Coal and Steel 'rationalisation', and who the only Country was that 'rationalised'. People are all too keen to blame Maggie for it, but all she was doing was implementing EU Policy.

I had no time for Maggie by the way, she was a useless leader, and sucked at delegation (the sign of a good leader). How she never immediately sacked the Home Secretary (the pratt with the ice cream cone haircut, whatever his name was) when he said on live television that the Police would no longer investigate cases of fraud under £10 million, revealed the true nature of the criminality that was going on under her watch.
To claim Thatcher was "implementing EU policy" when she set out to destroy the unions stinks of revisionism - this was ideologically driven social warfare. Thatcher and Reagan set the wheels in motion for the neo-liberal economic crisis that we are faced with today. In fact many of the factors driving the BREXIT debate are directly caused by globalisation - free movement of wealth, low wages and insecure employment for workers, huge inequality and the ever-widening gap between rich and poor.

If anyone who is voting for BREXIT thinks that the likes of Boris or IDS are on the side of the "ordinary" worker, they should think again. Britain would survive, but it'll turn into an even lower-regulation sweatshop with little protection for workers' rights or the environment. That will be the only way for "business" to prosper. Dreaming of going back to pre-EU days is just that - a pipe dream. Australia and New Zealand trade within Asia and to the US. Other Commonwealth countries are trading with China.

Think what happens after a divorce - it is seldom the parties are on similar "good friends" terms as before. We should reform the EU, no doubt about that, but behaving like a spoilt brat is no way to go about it.

To return to the OP's question, I suspect that in the short term it will get more complicated for yachts sailing from the UK to the EU and vice-versa. Tighter implementation of rules, extra or different regulations and certificates. In particular, as the Exiters are so keen on tightening border controls, this will definitely have an effect on yachts' freedom of movement. As some have stated, back to the old days.
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:44   #52
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Schengen is 'Dead Man Walking'.. if the UK walks so will everyone else except France, Germany and Belgium.. because lets face it. realistically that is where the Power lies and most other countries are sick of it..
...
That one is really hard to understand since UK was always out of Schengen.

From the EU 22 of the 28 states that form the Union form the Schengen area. From those 6 Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania want to by part of Schengen and only 2 countries opted out, UK and Ireland.

Several European countries that don't belong to EU signed agreements that make them practically under Schengen. Are in this case Norway, Switzerland and Iceland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

So it is hard to understand how UK can go out of something that never was a part (Schengen).

Regarding UK going out of EU being followed by another countries, I would say that most would be relieved to got ride of a country that was on the EU but always blocking all initiatives regarding a federal Europe, like a federal army a federal common foreign policy an a EU true constitution. Some in Europe still dream that UK can wake up to reality but most has lost that hope already.

I think that in the end UK is going to regret going out, but time will tell.

UK is still dreaming with its lost Empire and did not discover yet that it is a small country without relevance on world politics and that Europe only can be a major player if it is a federal state. Being a player has not mainly to do with military power but mostly with global economy.
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:52   #53
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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... Merkel is a communist...
.......
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:02   #54
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

To see what not being in the EU means, just look at Switzerland. In spite of not being in the EU Swiss Yachties have never had any issues sailing as much as they want anywhere in Europe. Even before Switzerland joined Schengen.

What Brexit might mean for me is that I would have more options for resetting the VAT clock...
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:13   #55
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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That's not what I hear in Coimbra.. seems to me the Portuguese are sick of the EU.. else the 'Rabbit' would not have been dislodged and replaced by the Left Wing party who wish to fight the Austerity Program thats seen 'Pensions cut, States and public wages sliced to the bone and benefits reduced.
And that's a big joke as well.. 0.70cent/mth increase in basic pensions.. its a sad joke..
...
Portuguese are sick of the austerity programs but not to the point to cause the party that implemented them not to have won last elections. As you probably know the party that won the elections is not governing the country (we had always been very creative) but by the Socialist party with the communists that promised the end of austerity.

EU is seen here as the ones that saved our skin but also as the ones that demand reality on the economics and budgets. It is never very popular to do that since that implies austerity.

Of course the austerity is the same and it is going to increase under Socialist rule since the markets didn't believe their impossible promises and raised the interests on the loans. So give it one more year for them to be quick down by their Communist allies out of government for not being able to fulfill the impossible promises they have done.

You are wrong if you think that most people think badly of EU, out of the communists and extreme left and maybe the left wing of the socialist party but on that last case not even those want out, but different policies.

The vast majority of the population see the UE as very positive and the vast majority wants Portugal in (more than 85%).
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:34   #56
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pirate Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Portuguese are sick of the austerity programs but not to the point to cause the party that implemented them not to have won last elections. As you probably know the party that won the elections is not governing the country (we had always been very creative) but by the Socialist party with the communists that promised the end of austerity.

EU is seen here as the ones that saved our skin but also as the ones that demand reality on the economics and budgets. It is never very popular to do that since that implies austerity.

Of course the austerity is the same and it is going to increase under Socialist rule since the markets didn't believe their impossible promises and raised the interests on the loans. So give it one more year for them to be quick down by their Communist allies out of government for not being able to fulfill the impossible promises they have done.

You are wrong if you think that most people think badly of EU, out of the communists and extreme left and maybe the left wing of the socialist party but on that last case not even those want out, but different policies.

The vast majority of the population see the UE as very positive and the vast majority wants Portugal in (more than 85%).
Hey.. what do I know.. all the rallies and marches against the 'TROIKA'...
As for Schengen.. please..
I said if the UK walks Schengen will collapse.. it does not have to be IN to deliver the Coup de Grace.
Suggest you stop asking the 'Imigrantes' who walk the beaches in summer speaking French and English so they are able to demonstrate their superiority to the people who stay at home.. its the ones who chose to stay in Portugal that count..
And as for Coelho's Party.. after getting screwed over by Socrates and his family and the 'Freeport' stitch-up.. the people had had enough of the Socialists and anything was better.. second time round he (Coelho) only won power because he formed a coalition.. which a few months back bit him in the ass.. and PS are back with Costa.. Bandido's ha voltar..
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:36   #57
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Certainly true, but how are they ever going to pay their Euro based debt?
In Portugal only the communists think that going out of the Euro will be a solution for the recovery of the Economy and I don't put credibility in their vision of reality, neither most Portuguese since they, among different parties don't reach 20% of the votes.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:38   #58
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Hey.. what do I know.. all the rallies and marches against the 'TROIKA'...
As for Schengen.. please.. ..
As I said, communists, many on the streets, few on the votes.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:56   #59
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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I'm not sure where the idea that EU citizens' opinion matters comes from?

Just look at what happened with the Constitution referendum ... That NO was pretty darn clear, but all they did was find a way around it. ..
Hum, that was really a problem since normally a constitution is approved by 2/3 of the population while here small countries like Holland with a small population could block a constitution.

The European Parliament that is constituted by representatives of all EU countries considering the population of each country voted the Constitution by 500 votes against 137, considerable more than the 2/3 that are normally required.

After that the constitution was already been approved by 19 countries when two referendums, one of them in Holland dictated a non approval on those countries and therefore a global non approval. The process of approval was then suspended on the other 7 countries that had not yet voted about that.

Are you sure that NO was that clear, regarding EU population?
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Old 05-03-2016, 11:02   #60
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As I said, communists, many on the streets, few on the votes.
Socialist = Communist with a democratic mask..
Communist = Honest democrat..
You sound almost American..
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