Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-04-2015, 08:57   #31
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

more information regarding the new law that come out in 2014:

On the Noonsite it is said that in Spain a ICC, or any other licence is not needed on a foreign yacht sailing their waters. That is wrong and a bit odd since Noonsite is generally accurate.

Spain is entitled to demand the qualification it seems adequate to all pleasure boats sailing on their waters, Spanish or foreign so just to be sure let's look at the Spanish relevant legislation, the "Real Decreto 875/2014, from 10/10/2014:

Regarding foreign yachts sailing in Spanish waters:

"Disposición adicional quinta. Exigencia de titulación para el gobierno de embarcaciones de recreo abanderadas en otros Estados.

1. Toda persona que gobierne una embarcación de recreo, abanderada en otros Estados, que navegue por aguas en las que España ejerza soberanía, derechos soberanos o jurisdicción deberá estar en posesión de una titulación que le habilite para realizar dicha navegación.

2. A los efectos previstos en el apartado anterior la titulación exigible, en aquellos casos en los que la nacionalidad del patrón coincida con la del pabellón de la embarcación, será la requerida de acuerdo con la legislación del país de nacionalidad del patrón;..."


It is clear on point 1 that all that sail a boat with foreign banner on Spanish waters has to have a licence that shows competence for doing the type of navigation that he is doing. On point 2 they say that the licence should be the one that provides that competence on the Skipper's country.

The point 2 raises a doubt: What happens if on the skipper's country boat licences are not mandatory? Two possible answers, those skippers will not be allowed to sail on Spanish waters (since they don't have a licence that attest their competence) or they will not need any licence. Another possibility is the Spanish authorities, on those particular cases, to establish what are the minimum certifications.

Legally speaking the point one has always precedence over point 2 so the last solution would probably not be possible but on the Annex IX that regards valid licences issued for other states we can see that they took a similar solution as Croatia referring the accepted licences or certifications on the case a country does not have mandatory licences.

For instance in what regards UK citizens the accepted licences are the ones from the RYA starting only with COASTAL SKIPPER and going till YACHTMASTER OCEAN with commercial endorsement. The ICC is equally accepted.

I can see that lesser licences (in several countries) are not accepted (and in that regards the ICC does not make sense).

On the Decreto are also mentioned the fines, case the boat is sailed without an adequate licence.

http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2014/10/1...2014-10344.pdf
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 08:58   #32
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
ICC Needed for Spain ?

What's not clear is irish citizens /boats holding RYA certificates ??

It's another stupid law that will prove enforceable in my view

What's not clear is will they cross accept licenses. Which is why the situation is unclear re ICC.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 09:23   #33
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
What's not clear is irish citizens /boats holding RYA certificates ??
.....
What's not clear is will they cross accept licenses. Which is why the situation is unclear re ICC.
..
I don't see it has odd Irish citizens holding RYA certificates since they don't have a local licence. They can also have the ICC.

According to the letter of the law on Spain they will not cross accept licences:

" A los efectos previstos en el apartado anterior la titulación exigible, en aquellos casos en los que la nacionalidad del patrón coincida con la del pabellón de la embarcación, será la requerida de acuerdo con la legislación del país de nacionalidad del patrón;"

They have made very clear that for Spanish citizens only Spanish licences are valid and what the law says is that what is required for a foreigner skipper is the equivalent Skipper's country licence (if the country skipper require one). However I would expect some flexibility regarding this even if one can always had the bad luck to deal with a police agent that will follow the law as it is.

Last year in Italy I have to deal with an Italian police that wanted to fine me because I was sailing an Italian flagged boat with a Portuguese licence accepted by the Italian authorities as adequate to sail the boat. In his view an Italian flagged boat could only be sailed by someone with an Italian licence. I have to insist he asked the Port Captain about that (otherwise I would complain directly to him) to convince the guy that he was not right.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 09:40   #34
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I don't see it has odd Irish citizens holding RYA certificates since they don't have a local licence. They can also have the ICC.

According to the letter of the law on Spain they will not cross accept licences:

" A los efectos previstos en el apartado anterior la titulación exigible, en aquellos casos en los que la nacionalidad del patrón coincida con la del pabellón de la embarcación, será la requerida de acuerdo con la legislación del país de nacionalidad del patrón;"

They have made very clear that for Spanish citizens only Spanish licences are valid and what the law says is that what is required for a foreigner skipper is the equivalent Skipper's country licence (if the country skipper require one). However I would expect some flexibility regarding this even if one can always had the bad luck to deal with a police agent that will follow the law as it is.

Last year in Italy I have to deal with an Italian police that wanted to fine me because I was sailing an Italian flagged boat with a Portuguese licence accepted by the Italian authorities as adequate to sail the boat. In his view an Italian flagged boat could only be sailed by someone with an Italian licence. I have to insist he asked the Port Captain about that (otherwise I would complain directly to him) to convince the guy that he was not right.

Huge numbers of irish sailors hold RYA tickets . Often more then hold ISA qualifications


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 09:49   #35
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

Polux. Some of your Spanish paragraphs do not appear exactly as you copied In reference to the royal decree , are you using a different source.

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 10:00   #36
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

Of course the nonsense of having 150 mile ticket requirements, when one is in effect outside spainish waters in ones own boat is ridiculous.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 10:15   #37
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,757
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Polux. Some of your Spanish paragraphs do not appear exactly as you copied In reference to the royal decree , are you using a different source.

Dave
What is on the published law (and therefore valid) is this:

Disposición adicional quinta. Exigencia de titulación para el gobierno de embarcaciones de recreo abanderadas en otros Estados.

1. Toda persona que gobierne una embarcación de recreo, abanderada en otros Estados, que navegue por aguas en las que España ejerza soberanía, derechos soberanos o jurisdicción deberá estar en posesión de una titulación que le habilite para realizar dicha navegación.

2. A los efectos previstos en el apartado anterior la titulación exigible, en aquellos casos en los que la nacionalidad del patrón coincida con la del pabellón de la embarcación, será la requerida de acuerdo con la legislación del país de nacionalidad del patrón; y para los casos en los que no coincidan ambas nacionalidades la titulación será aquella requerida por la legislación del país de residencia del patrón o en su defecto, la de su nacionalidad.


http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2014/10/1...2014-10344.pdf

I don't see what you mean, it look the same to me however I had also access to the law on a non PDF version but I don't see any difference.
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
icc, Spain

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What Basics Are Needed for a Bluewater Boat ? Tori General Sailing Forum 32 10-08-2011 06:13
Le Havre (or Dunkerque), France to Mediterranean, Help Needed Kimmo Europe & Mediterranean 16 22-07-2011 04:38



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:01.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.