Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-08-2011, 23:57   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Netsel, Marmaris
Boat: Selene 59
Posts: 130
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

[QUOTE=barnakiel;757625]On a charter boat, right?

You come on a foreign-flagged boat, then that flag rules what papers you need.

And if an under-trained officer in a less-than-a-sailing country claims otherwise, then I am sorry, SH, but let's not create urban legends on the forum.

If the regulation does exist, PLS quote the regulation.

No, as I said above, I decided to do the course before I left Australia.


I am no expert in this guys, I just read like others on this forum that proof of competence is required by some countries so decided to do it before I left so I wouldn't get caught in a foreign language country with a foreign language instructor trying to comply with whatever laws they have. I did the theory and practical on my own boat with an Australian RYA approved instructor.

The course is not that difficult if you have some seamanship skills (this is for the Coastal Skipper, not sure about the others); e.g. piloting skills like calculating secondary secondary port tides (Atlantic France is used as they have 14 foot tides), create and execute a passage plan that takes in some hazards like crossing shallow water etc (see above), planning and executing a night enrty at a port/marina that is not your home port/marina, part of that I had to do with all intruments turned off picking out lights, taking compass bearings, running fix etc, picking up a mooring and anchoring in a high tidal current area. All that sort of thing. How much theory time you need depends on what you already know. The practical I did started at lunchtime and finished about midnight.


As well as reading forums like this one, I did some research and the only country that I could find that actually published something was Croatia, they required an ICC or equivalent and had a list of equivalents for various countries. For Australian flagged vessels they accepted RYA Day, Coastal or Offshore Skipper (with a CENVI endorsement if you want to us inland waterways) and before anyone asks, no I can't remember the site address, it was over a year ago.

At the end of the day guys, as I have also said above, we have been through Gibraltar, Spain, France (including Corsica) and Italy and nobody has asked for proof of competence. Therefore, it is a personal choice if you want to run the gaunlet or not. Me I am happy that I have a piece of paper should anyone ask.

Cheers
Brownie
__________________

__________________
Buena Vista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2011, 20:48   #17
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Tenerife
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,641
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

This topic has been discussed before. If you check Noonsite it states:

After having cleared into Spain, the procedure at subsequent ports seems to depend on the attitude of local officials. However, one should be prepared to show all relevant documents whenever asked. One may be asked for registration papers, crew lists, certificate of competence and proof of marine insurance. Once cleared, yachts are free to stop in ports and anchorages where there are no officials.

Yachts must carry their original registration document and ship's radio licence. One member of the crew must have a radio operator’s certificate of competence.

The original insurance certificate must be carried and a Greek translation showing third party insurance with the amounts in figures. The minimum amounts are 293,470 euro liability for death or injury by sinking, collision or other cause for crew and third parties, 146,753 euro for damage, 88,041 euro for pollution. It should be noted that if a boat is owned by a company or corporation, it will cause fewer difficulties with the authorities if the name of the company is the same as that of the boat (or nearly so).

The skipper must have an International Certificate of Competence.



This has been the case with Croatia and Greece also. Many current cruisers have stated that they have never been asked for the certificate. They have also said that pretty much any certificate will work and bring one if you have one.

For me, I have too much on the line to worry about this so I took the ASA 104 class two weeks ago and am applying for their version of a competency certificate. I learned very little from the class for my $450 plus the $50 it will take to get the certificate. But I did get something. A brush-up on dead reckoning, rules of the road, and reading maps. I've been so attached to my chart plotter that I needed a reset.

Now, all I need is the radio license operators certificate. If you have the time and resources, why not? If you don't, ultimately they are going to let you go. I'm sure the facts are the same there - they can't even keep the real criminals locked up, so you'll be ok.
__________________

__________________
Not all who wander are lost

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/palarran/
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2011, 21:14   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Netsel, Marmaris
Boat: Selene 59
Posts: 130
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LifePart2 View Post

Then again, the ICC is only issued by some countries. So, not having access to that, what would they count as sufficient qualification? Would the Pleasure Boat Operators License, which is the only required qualification in Canada suffice? Even though you can get it with a very simple MCQ test?

Noel
Noel.
I found the document on Croatia and while it may not be relevant to other countries, it does at least give an indication of what they consider acceptable ICC equivalents.

For Canada it lists the following qualifications: International Bareboat Skipper, Yachtmaster Coastal/Offshore/Ocean and International Watchkeeper/Fotilla Skipper Certificate. It also mentions International Yacht Training Inc (IYT) as the issuing body.

The full list can be found at: http://www.mmpi.hr/UserDocsImages/TA...%29%207_10.pdf

Cheers
Brownie
__________________
Buena Vista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2011, 22:57   #19
Registered User
 
jstevens's Avatar

Join Date: May 2006
Location: On board Sarah, currently lying in Jacksonville, FL
Boat: Pearson, 424, 42', Sarah
Posts: 582
Images: 4
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

IMUO (In My Uniformed Opinion), the ICC is mostly an issue for the skippers of EU-flagged vessels. Many of the EU countries have significant costs associated with the rescue and retrieval of unprepared vessels and crew. In the USA we have solved most of this problem by privatizing the rescue service. If you have enough credit on your Visa card you can get towed from any coastal or inshore location. Otherwise you can expect a call from the bill collector. In the EU the philosophy appears to be this is a Govt role, so laws are required to prevent predictable events (the Laura Decker saga is probably an example of this approach) to reduce this cost.
So, if you own an EU-flagged vessel, I would invest in the ICC. If you are chartering an EU-flagged vessel, and the charter company did not require an ICC - I believe the fault lies with the charter company not the charterer. Since the charter company is likely a tax-paying employer in the country requiring the ICC I do not expect this to be much of an issue.

The other question is for non-EU flagged vessels owned and operated by non-EU residents. Over zealous port officials may demand an ICC, but I do not believe that is supported by the existing regulations. That doesn't mean those officials will go away easily. However, they usually don't have any knowledge of the requirements of non-Eu countries. So any official-looking document will probably put the most aggressive bureaucrat back on his/her heels. Before I cruised Europe in 2005-2007, I took an online boating test and received a nice certificate to show I passed the test. It was a very cute card with signal flags around the border. I doubt any of those aggressive bureaucrats could determine if it was the equivalent of the ICC. That said in 2 years of cruising Portugal and Spain I was never asked to produce that card. Those with a very official-looking Captain License should have no problems.

So my recommendation is:
  • Owners/operators of EU flagged vessels should get an ICC
  • EU owners of non-EU flagged vessels operating in the EU should get an ICC
  • Non-EU owners/operators or non-EU flagged vessels operating in EU waters should have some sort of documentation of competence, if not an ICC
John
__________________
jstevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2011, 10:34   #20
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chioggia Italy
Boat: Amel Maramu 1978 46'
Posts: 49
Images: 1
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

Good Day to all, I have read all responses and have to say that their is a lot of conflicting reponses.. First the ICC is the product of the UNECEIWC, obtainable in Britain (before leaving) for example by the RYA. Such document provides assurance from 1 government to another that the holder meets levels of competence required laid down in Res 40. Knowing that in Britain, one can buy his boat without a "permit" and just go sailing or boating, The ICC is proof of competency where in certain countries, none are available. As thus, most European states have adopted the ICC with the exception of Greece, Portugal and Spain, although these countries are still most likely to ask visitors for proof. If anyone of you has ever been to Greece, for example, you would be amazed at the number of bare boat Britiains, (nothing against the Brits) who haven't a clue as to what they are doing. Anchoring in 6 mt water with 6 mt of chain out, keeping the sails in the same position regardless of the position of the wind and sailing into natural reserves, to name a few. The ICC enables owners of vessels with same flags to use them in European waters and proves to local authorities that the skipper has the required UK/ Irish qualifications for skippering the vessel. Get it before you leave. B
__________________
Maramu 46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2011, 10:39   #21
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chioggia Italy
Boat: Amel Maramu 1978 46'
Posts: 49
Images: 1
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

By the way, the Brits and Irish are required to obtain the ICC. no other countries or vessels with other European flags are required. I guess my skippering permit that lasted 1 year in Italy, was well worth the effort.
__________________
Maramu 46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2011, 12:41   #22
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maramu 46
By the way, the Brits and Irish are required to obtain the ICC. no other countries or vessels with other European flags are required. I guess my skippering permit that lasted 1 year in Italy, was well worth the effort.
What. Actually no we are not.

There's a lot of BS here. Firstly the ICC came out of the Rhine navigation requirements and is still a primary requirement for any European inland waterways cruising ( with the CEVNI) extensions. The Icc is required here irrespective of nationality

The ICC is merely a uniform certificate of competence. Countries that signed Resolution 40 basically state that they accept such a competency cert as sufficient proof of basic competency. It does not force such countries to " require" competency certs. The UK and Ireland for example are both signatories to Resolution 40 but do not require any certification from visitors or locals.

The ICC is purely applicable for your boat issued by your country. It is not a charter competency cert , but is often asked for by charter companies, irrespective of their local rules.

Spain and Portugal are not signatories to. Resolution 40 since they have an extensive graduated domestic competency cert system, signing Res 40 would undermine that

At present for visiting yachtsmen on their own boat ( ie not chartering ) the only country mandating competency is Croatia , they accept the ICC and about 15 other types of certs.

Greece requires mandatory insurance but not competency.

For local bareboat charters the rules are different.

Many countries require you to show your countries competency if your country requires one

ASA 104 or greater candidates can convert to an aSA proficiency cert, which is acceptable for charter in Croatia and Greece and other places

The reality is that you some sort of competency cert cruising the Med ( and elsewhere) but it doesn't have to be the ICC

The RYA,ISA and IYT can now issue ICCs to non nationals. ( as can Nz and Oz i believe. ) courses I presume resume you to travel to the relevant school location , IYT, have a base in Florida.


The ICC is far from a standardised competency cert, countries have signed Res 40 in some cases with caveats or can override with local national laws that apply over and above the ICC. The ICC for example was never intended as a charter competency yet is often used as such.

Equally over zealous or plain mis-informed port officials have sought particular competency Certs where national laws don't require it.

I don't think there's a actual documented case of significant sanctions being taken against someone that doesn't have competency certs outside of a accident situation.

Noonsite suffers from repeating half facts rather then seeking the truth directly.

The RYA members only pages list country by country the requirements.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2011, 13:18   #23
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Tenerife
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,641
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

Nice Post Dave.

That pretty much put a fork in it, this baby is done.

Of course, there will still be the 22+ posts argueing about it
__________________
Not all who wander are lost

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/palarran/
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2011, 13:38   #24
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chioggia Italy
Boat: Amel Maramu 1978 46'
Posts: 49
Images: 1
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

Hello Dave, You are correct, the origins of the ICC arose from the need for reassurance on the Rhine and Danube that vessel operators were competent to ensure safety of navigation and protection of the environment. Greece, Portugal and Spain have not yet adopted the resolution 40. Croatia is a different story, having adopted the resolution, but not belonging to the EU. Basically, anyone, not having met the mandated and competency requirements, for example in Italy and France, to operate a boat like mine, 14mt, you need a specific permit. I know for a fact that in the UK that is not the case, not meaning that Uk sailors are lesser, meaning simply, that these vessels and skippers wishing to go to say for example in France, need the ICC. The ICC proves to local authorities that the skipper of the vessel has the required qualifications for skippering. My resources; Application of United Nations Economic Commission for Europe Resolutions relating to Inland Navigation. 03/11/2011
__________________
Maramu 46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2011, 13:44   #25
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chioggia Italy
Boat: Amel Maramu 1978 46'
Posts: 49
Images: 1
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

A personal reply for Go boating now.... Not sure of your nationality, but for Italy, Brits and Irish are required to have the ICC, however sometimes not requested. Sorry, I have close contact with the Italian Coast Guard. B
__________________
Maramu 46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2011, 13:57   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Port Welshpool Australia
Boat: sold swan new cat under construction / Canados 50s
Posts: 755
Images: 16
Send a message via Skype™ to beneteau-500
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

so what does one of these icc look like then ?
__________________
beneteau-500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2011, 13:59   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Montevideo, Uruguay
Posts: 238
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

As far as I know, other countries only require that you posses the certifications that your own country requires. Since the US has no requirement for certification for sailing a pleasure vessel, none es expected to be had when traveling abroad.

My country does require certification, and If I were to sail to Spain, I'll have to show it. BTW, Spanish certification (PER) is quite demanding, from what I hear.

Good luck

BTW 2: Spanish sailing site, perhaps you can manage to post the question there: Foro NŠutico Deportivo - La Taberna del Puerto
__________________
dpons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2011, 14:01   #28
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maramu 46
A personal reply for Go boating now.... Not sure of your nationality, but for Italy, Brits and Irish are required to have the ICC, however sometimes not requested. Sorry, I have close contact with the Italian Coast Guard. B
Utterly incorrect I was there this year. There is no way under EU rules that a particular set of EU countries could be singled out. It would be illegal and unenforceable. Italy could apply it to all Issuing ICC countries or none. Also everywhere a mandatory ICC is specified a list of substitutes is available

For using an Italian flagged boat ( charter ) an ICC or equivalent is required , but that's different.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2011, 14:04   #29
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpons
As far as I know, other countries only require that you posses the certifications that your own country requires. Since the US has no requirement for certification for sailing a pleasure vessel, none es expected to be had when traveling abroad.

My country does require certification, and If I were to sail to Spain, I'll have to show it. BTW, Spanish certification (PER) is quite demanding, from what I hear.
No unfortunately, that's the general rule. However countries like Croatia require some certificate of competency ( they list 15 alternatives) so irrespective of whether your country issues it they require one. Of course none of this had been tested in court.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-08-2011, 05:16   #30
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: ICC Needed for Spain ?

Anyways, having visited about two dozen harbours in Spain, and countless harbours around the world, I have NEVER been asked to show any proof of competence.

The only papers we were asked for were:
- passports,
- boat registration,
- fund proofs (Australia only),
- vaccination proofs (Brazil, Panama, RSA, etc.).

Small boat, perhaps this counts.

b.
__________________

__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
icc, Spain

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What Basics Are Needed for a Bluewater Boat ? Tori General Sailing Forum 32 10-08-2011 06:13
Le Havre (or Dunkerque), France to Mediterranean, Help Needed Kimmo Europe & Mediterranean 16 22-07-2011 04:38



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:11.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.