Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[Chris Robb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There's a lot of bellyaching over this tax , especially given the fact that many can avoid it. Furthermore if you got " caught" cause you are overwintering , you do realise you are in Greece don't you.


Dave

The boat is in Greece, I am in the UK. and as for Beleyaching,(perhaps beleyyachting!) and the rest of your post, pray tell me how I can avoid it in the first year? I cannot even leave this year without paying it all. I could even get stung for non payment for the first 5 months!!!!

So the cost for 9 weeks cruising would be €1,400 / 52 * 9 = €242 per week.

I have already taken action and booked a haul out yard lifting out twice a year - that is in self will save me €900 without looking at the tax. If I don't get to pay tax whilst ashore I will make bigger savings. So at a stroke the Leros economy has lost €900.

[NornaBiron]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There's a lot of bellyaching over this tax , especially given the fact that many can avoid it. Furthermore if you got " caught" cause you are overwintering , you do realise you are in Greece don't you.


Dave

I think the 'bellyaching' over this tax by those that are overwintering is due to the fact that there has been practically no notice and therefore those of us that are currently in Greek waters are unable to leave and avoid paying the tax. We have had atrocious weather in the Aegean for the last two weeks, gusts up to 58 knots in a sheltered anchorage, and more to come, hardly the sort of weather you would sensibly go sailing in. Therefore we have no option but to stay and pay - that's not exactly very fair.

[robert sailor]

Fair as they say is a medieval carnival

[athene]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Well all that will clarify out when the time comes to pay next year. I personally believe visiting yachts will ultimately be exempted

Dave

Unfortunately, that may be too late, as many of them will already have decided to leave or changed their plans to visit. I think the reason a lot of people are 'bellyacheing' is not just because of the impact on their own pockets but the anticipated impact on the local Greek economy.

Anyone who loves Greece will be saddened if the efforts of the government to prop up the central finances are at the expense of hundreds of hard-working businesses that depend on cruising yachts for a substantial slice of their revenue.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by athene

Unfortunately, that may be too late, as many of them will already have decided to leave or changed their plans to visit. I think the reason a lot of people are 'bellyacheing' is not just because of the impact on their own pockets but the anticipated impact on the local Greek economy.

Anyone who loves Greece will be saddened if the efforts of the government to prop up the central finances are at the expense of hundreds of hard-working businesses that depend on cruising yachts for a substantial slice of their revenue.

I think in fairness, Greece's problems extend way way beyond a few local tavernas and bars. There has been wholesale decimation of certain certains of Greek society and I suspect any tax measures will always impact on certains sections unfairly , theres not much you can do. Most Greek yachts and those with long term commitments to Greece will stay , I suspect , the few numbers that leave will not amount to anything and I suspect that by the actual implementation date, something will be worked out for short term (4-6 weeks ?) visitors etc.

dave

[athene]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Most Greek yachts and those with long term commitments to Greece will stay, I suspect , the few numbers that leave will not amount to anything and I suspect that by the actual implementation date, something will be worked out for short term (4-6 weeks ?) visitors etc.

dave

Judging by this thread (and the experience of Sardinia in 2006-7), it'll be rather more than 'few numbers'. It's the uncertainty and the resultant speculation that is doing the damage, as is evident from the numerous postings here.

[robert sailor]

There is not a lot to speculate on, they will tax as they have laid it out. Best is wait it out and see what happens in a few weeks. Won't be long and we'll all know.

[Alenka]

I had rather hoped to be able to bring more news to you on the method for paying and getting discounts. A Greek associate of mine has been actively involved with this tax for a large charter company.

Yesterday he went to the tax authoroties to ask questions face to face but would you believe it was a public holiday! I hope to be able to report more by Monday.

Commercial operators get a 50% discount so the the 30% discount is aimed at the private sector who choose to base their boat permanenty in Greece and who are prepared to pay up front. 'My' interpretation is that if you haul, sail, haul, but stay the year you are regarded as permanently Greek based and most probably have to pay a full year of tax, not just for the months you are afloat. This is one of the questions he will be asking.

Boats left abandoned on quaysides in harbours (not just by visitors but by Greeks themselves) is a major problem that I doubt this tax will solve. In fact if they are forced to pay a few hundred €'s I suspect that they will feel they have a legitimate right to clutter up the place and prevent cruisers from cruising. If we all engaged in this practise there would be no where to go!

I will try to publish the information I (hope to) receive asap.

What I can tell you is that charter operators are no happier than private owners about this tax. Many, even after the discount, will be paying many tens of thousands of €'s each year. They have not had time or notice to budget this cost into charges!
Their business will be affected and so will be the many thousands of people who book charter boats. Work into this equation that many charter operators will replace and phase boats in and out of their fleet throughout the year and you will appreciate that they could end up paying two lots of tax for a single line of sales!!

Clearly the long and short term aspects of this tax and its implications have not be thought through the authorities. It will hit some of the smaller villages and communities very, very hard and ironically raise little in the overall scheme of things.

[Chris Robb]

Originally Posted by Alenka

I had rather hoped to be able to bring more news to you on the method for paying and getting discounts. A Greek associate of mine has been actively involved with this tax for a large charter company.

Yesterday he went to the tax authoroties to ask questions face to face but would you believe it was a public holiday! I hope to be able to report more by Monday.

Commercial operators get a 50% discount so the the 30% discount is aimed at the private sector who choose to base their boat permanenty in Greece and who are prepared to pay up front. 'My' interpretation is that if you haul, sail, haul, but stay the year you are regarded as permanently Greek based and most probably have to pay a full year of tax, not just for the months you are afloat. This is one of the questions he will be asking.

Boats left abandoned on quaysides in harbours (not just by visitors but by Greeks themselves) is a major problem that I doubt this tax will solve. In fact if they are forced to pay a few hundred €'s I suspect that they will feel they have a legitimate right to clutter up the place and prevent cruisers from cruising. If we all engaged in this practise there would be no where to go!

I will try to publish the information I (hope to) receive asap.

What I can tell you is that charter operators are no happier than private owners about this tax. Many, even after the discount, will be paying many tens of thousands of €'s each year. They have not had time or notice to budget this cost into charges!
Their business will be affected and so will be the many thousands of people who book charter boats. Work into this equation that many charter operators will replace and phase boats in and out of their fleet throughout the year and you will appreciate that they could end up paying two lots of tax for a single line of sales!!

Clearly the long and short term aspects of this tax and its implications have not be thought through the authorities. It will hit some of the smaller villages and communities very, very hard and ironically raise little in the overall scheme of things.

Alenke, thanks for the attempts to get information. I would imagine that the best place to go now is the Minister of Shipping and Aegean Sea, not the tax authorities, who is blessed with the task of writing the instructions for implementation and collection.

I wrote in post no. 271 above that I had already looked to save €900 on next years costs by changing yards to one which provides a much narrower service - thus the savings. But that represents at a stroke - 1 person - €900 gone for ever from the Leros GDP. I feel bad about changing marinas as the others were good, try extremely hard, and are in the middle of a large capital expenditure.

I would have paid 50% deposit to them in January for next June to preserve my place, but now they have not got that. I wonder how many more boat owners are delaying making up their minds about where they will be, and what the cash flow implications will be. I bet the marina will be forced to cut back on the investment this year as a result, meaning loss of jobs locally.

Not a happy situation.

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by Alenka

I had rather hoped to be able to bring more news to you on the method for paying and getting discounts. A Greek associate of mine has been actively involved with this tax for a large charter company.

Yesterday he went to the tax authoroties to ask questions face to face but would you believe it was a public holiday! I hope to be able to report more by Monday.

Commercial operators get a 50% discount so the the 30% discount is aimed at the private sector who choose to base their boat permanenty in Greece and who are prepared to pay up front. 'My' interpretation is that if you haul, sail, haul, but stay the year you are regarded as permanently Greek based and most probably have to pay a full year of tax, not just for the months you are afloat. This is one of the questions he will be asking.

Boats left abandoned on quaysides in harbours (not just by visitors but by Greeks themselves) is a major problem that I doubt this tax will solve. In fact if they are forced to pay a few hundred €'s I suspect that they will feel they have a legitimate right to clutter up the place and prevent cruisers from cruising. If we all engaged in this practise there would be no where to go!

I will try to publish the information I (hope to) receive asap.

What I can tell you is that charter operators are no happier than private owners about this tax. Many, even after the discount, will be paying many tens of thousands of €'s each year. They have not had time or notice to budget this cost into charges!
Their business will be affected and so will be the many thousands of people who book charter boats. Work into this equation that many charter operators will replace and phase boats in and out of their fleet throughout the year and you will appreciate that they could end up paying two lots of tax for a single line of sales!!

Clearly the long and short term aspects of this tax and its implications have not be thought through the authorities. It will hit some of the smaller villages and communities very, very hard and ironically raise little in the overall scheme of things.

Alenka -- thanks for the work and the posting and look forward to you next one -- you might ask your associate if he could ask the Greek tax office if an american boat comes for 2 months and is 40' or 12.2 meters would they have to pay 1220euros for the privilage?

Also what about innocent passage? We have been looking at charts and trying to figure out how to get to Turkey from italy and it not going to be easy. and it will be a very long sail

Thanks

[athene]

Originally Posted by Chris Robb

I wonder how many more boat owners are delaying making up their minds about where they will be, and what the cash flow implications will be. I bet the marina will be forced to cut back on the investment this year as a result, meaning loss of jobs locally.

Not a happy situation.

I think a lot, like you (and me, in fact) have already made up their minds, Chris. That's why the uncertainty is IMHO so damaging. For every yacht that's planning to leave Greece there's probably several more that have changed their plans to enter Greek waters rather than wait to see how this tax pans out.

GORDON

[NornaBiron]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I suspect that by the actual implementation date, something will be worked out for short term (4-6 weeks ?) visitors etc.

dave

I don't know how you imagine this will happen as the implementation date is 1st January 2014. With Christmas, New Year and weekends taken into consideration that gives them 10 days to work it all out!

[jckb]

I'm copying here a post I made yesterday on YBW forums on behalf of the British Cruising Association. I hope this helps your discussions.

First, the tax was enacted as Article 13 of Law 4211/2013 on 26 November 2013. It was gazetted as reference A 256 on 28th November. We were aware this was probably the case about a week ago, but didn't post it until we found proof on www.et.gr yesterday, the 12th December. New Greek Cruising Tax | CA was then updated.

The Cruising Association, and equivalent organisations from Sweden, Germany and France, are working together to clear up what the proper interpretations of the law are. It is clear that some elements of the translations, if taken at face value, break international law. Others contravene EU directives. But these may just be mis-understandings. So, as organisations, rather than screaming "robbery", we're now finding out if our translations are wrong, and what the correct interpretations may be.

We're also suggesting what implementations of the law may cause fewer yachts to be frightened away, and thus raise the tax take, as well as lowering anger levels of those who will pay the tax. And many thanks to all of you who put questions to the CA through the contact email address on the site. These built our wish list of changes.

We're presently awaiting the first Greek responses to our efforts. Christmas will interfere with timings, so don't expect revolutions before the tax starts to apply.

For those who wonder what on earth tax residence has to do with what's going on, search for the stories about what happened to a few people in Spain who didn't declare they were tax residents, and chose not to mention they kept foreign registered boats in Spain for more than 180 days. For a reasonably up to date reference on this matter, see Time Abroad | JimB Sail

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by NornaBiron

I don't know how you imagine this will happen as the implementation date is 1st January 2014. With Christmas, New Year and weekends taken into consideration that gives them 10 days to work it all out!

You have a rather " precise" view of the way things are done in Greece !

Dave

[goboatingnow]

This is an interesting post on ybw , after Jims post


QUOTE] TThe original Greek law is here (in Greek):

http://lawbank.forologikanea.gr/laws...ticle_id=11314

Following is a Google translation:

Article 13 (Law 4211/2013)
Finally residence and voyages (T.P.P.) pleasure boats and small vessels

0
One . A specific charge was called "End of Stay and Operate '(T.P.P.), which lies:

a) all recreational vessels / private and professional,

b) small motor vessel of length seven (7) meters or more and

c) professional tourist imeroploia overall length seven (7) meters or more.

The T.P.P. charged for all the above mentioned ships and small boats, regardless of their flag, sailing, moored or anchored in Greek territorial waters.

0
Two . The T.P.P. calculated on an annual basis, valid from 1 January to 31 December each year and is determined as follows: For a total length of seven (7) feet to eight (8) feet to two hundred (200) euros.

B. The total length of more than eight (8) meters and up to ten (10) feet to three hundred (300) euros.

c For the total length of more than ten (10) meters and up to twelve (12) feet to four hundred (400) euros.

D. The total length of more than (12) measures:

aa) per year, one hundred (100) per meter, calculated from the first measure or

bb) per month, ten (10) per meter, calculated from the first measure. The charge for recreational vessels and commercial tourist imeroploia halved provided the exclusive professional use.

0
Three . Where ships d of paragraph 2 of this permanently moored in Greek Territory, a discount of thirty percent (30%). The Minister of Marine and Aegean defined criteria of permanent mooring means of evidence for the provision of rebate and every detail required for the implementation of this paragraph.

0
4 . To calculate the T.P.P. take account of the overall length of the vessel or small vessel, which is listed in the document ethnicity or airworthiness certificate or rating certificate or Permit to Operate.

0
5 . A. Payment of T.P.P. conducted electronically as follows: aa. for ships or small vessels in the Greek Territory in December each year for the T.P.P. next year, bb. for ships or small boats that will enter Greek territory before entering or entering.

b Alternatively, payment of T.P.P. can be done as follows: aa. For ships or small vessels flying the flag state - state of the EU, entering the Greek Territory, Port Authority issuing the DE.K.P.A..

bb. For ships or small vessels flying the flag of a country outside the EU entering the Greek territory, the Customs Authority issuing the Transit (Transit Log).

cc. For ships or small vessels, regardless of flag, located in the Greek Territory at the time of entry into force of this Article, the competent tax office conducted or the Port Authority.

The main proof of payment T.P.P. kept with the shipping documents of the vessel or small vessel and demonstrated to the competent Port, Customs and Tax Authorities whenever required.

d If a check by the competent Port, Tax and Customs Authority found not paid T.P.P., detain the vessel or small vessel until payment thereof, carried out pursuant to the provisions of subparagraphs a and b of this. In any case it is found that has not been paid the T.P.P. penalty equal to one hundred percent (100%) the year attributable T.P.P. without discount.

0
6 . Any departure of the ship or small boat from the Greek Territory for any reason at any time before the expiry of T.P.P.

not create an obligation to refund any money from the State.

If re-ship or small boat in Greek Territory, as long as the T.P.P., there is no requirement to re-pay the T.P.P. for the period until the end force.

0
7 . A. Persons liable for payment of T.P.P. are:

a) the owner or operator of the recreational vessel or professional tourist imeroploiou or his legal representative,

b) the owner or the owner or user of the private recreational vessel, and

c) the owner or the owner or user of the small vessel. These are jointly and severally liable for the payment of T.P.P.

B. Matters relating to the establishment, control and release attributable acts are governed by the applicable provisions.

By decision of the Ministers of Finance and Aegean Marine and regulated the manner and process of recovery T.P.P. and any other relevant issue for the implementation of this.

0
Eight . For the purposes of this Article, the terms used have the following meaning: a recreational vessel means a vessel length of more than seven (7) meters in order for sailing and more than twelve (12) meters to a motor, the which has the ability of the general construction to use to carry leisure travel.

b recreational vessel means the recreational vessel capacity up to forty-nine (49) passengers, which has adequate and appropriate accommodation especially for passengers on the exploitation of whom a contract total charter.

c Private recreational vessel means the recreational vessel that is not professional in accordance with the provisions of this paragraph indent b.

D. Small vessel means any vessel overall length up to seven (7) meters in order for sailing and up to twelve (12) meters to a motor, which is used for recreation.

e Business Tourism Imeroploio: is the small vessel or recreational vessel or passenger tour boat, the flag State - State of the European Union or the European Economic Area, performing daily sea voyage in a twenty-four hours between ports, coasts and bays of Greek Territory, with the possibility of extension of up abroad in a single individual or group ticket ticket accompanied by a passenger manifest.

0
Nine . The T.P.P. must stay in the Greek Territory from 1.1.2014.

[/QUOTE]

Leaving aside the issues with google translate. ( feet metres etc) It makes I believe two things clear

( a) the 30% discount applies to all taxes in paragraph 2 , not just the 12m + as has been erroneously reported.


(b) it's clearly an annual tax applying from the 1st of January every year.

(C) I would contend that the monthly option relates to the payment options , the intro clearly says the tax is on an annual basis. Hence once you enter Greek waters and dock and seek your DEPKA or TRANSIT LOG. You will pay an annual charge. Innocent passage seems to covered in that foreign yachts that pass through without stopping , will not have Depka or transit log.


I am convinced concessions will be made for short term visiting yachts


Dave