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Old 22-11-2013, 09:07   #76
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pirate Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!

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No, in fact the opposite, they will have the nice places to themselves after the great unwashed upsticks and move.

Pete
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Old 22-11-2013, 10:09   #77
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Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
If they're really big spenders, will a few hundred euro change their plans?

Won't they spend that in order to move their boat somewhere else?

It's true they might move on the principle that they hate the word "tax", but the Med is truly a beautiful place. I think Italy and Greece will still have sailboats, though this might free up some marina space.
Its not a few hundred euros though! 1cm over 12m and its 1300 euro. like others have said 400 or even 500 euro to cruise greece is neither here nor there but at 1300 its way more than any other nearby cruising ground.

The fact that -
1. it was introduced with 1 months notice (in winter when you cant realistically leave and most boats are already laid up)
2. triples the penalty at an arbitrary 1cm over 12m
3. is designed so that most greeks wont pay it
4. will not provide one iota of additional services to cruisers in return
5. applies to boats laid up when they cant even cruise
6. will harm hundreds of small greek businesses that support the cruising industry

means that there will be alot of angry skippers in greece next year that will leave on principal im sure.

No fun cruising a place if you feel like some greek b@#tard has shoved a rubber dong up ya date!
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Old 22-11-2013, 13:47   #78
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Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!

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Originally Posted by svBeBe View Post
So for our 16 mtr boat it would cost 10 euro per meter per month, or 160 euro for one month or 480 euro for 3 months. That is not exorbitant as compared to the cruising tax in Croatia others report they have paid there. Or what others have reportedly paid for the privilege to cruise Montenegro. This new Greek tax will not change any of our Med cruising plans.

Judy
What you forget is that not everyone has your sort money. This tax is also being imposed on the locals. They will therefore be paying the full yearly fees (less the discounts of course).

We know people who sail on a very small budget this new tax could add up to be as much as 10% of their budget. Now if it was 10% of yours, would you not be a little concerned and possibly decide either to leave or not visit that country at all.

Your ever friendly

Albert
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Old 22-11-2013, 16:53   #79
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I noticed in that translation a 20% surcharge if you paid monthly. Ouch!


Dave
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Old 23-11-2013, 03:39   #80
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Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!

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Originally Posted by miyagimoon View Post
What you forget is that not everyone has your sort money. This tax is also being imposed on the locals. They will therefore be paying the full yearly fees (less the discounts of course).

We know people who sail on a very small budget this new tax could add up to be as much as 10% of their budget. Now if it was 10% of yours, would you not be a little concerned and possibly decide either to leave or not visit that country at all.

Your ever friendly

Albert
More than 10% of our budget, we're off!
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Old 23-11-2013, 06:07   #81
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

So if I'm reading this correctly, large boats who don't spend much money will leave, residents with large boats will have to pay, and smaller boats who are just passing through will likely just pay the tax.

Some boats will move to Turkey or other surrounding areas.

Greek politicians will be able to claim that they've cracked down on "wealthy" boat owners. Some more taxes will be collected. Some fairly influential boat and marina owners will lobby like heck to get the law changed.
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Old 23-11-2013, 07:27   #82
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

Cruiser: Well then, what's on the menu?
Greek: You can have fee and penalty with tax and fee.
Cruiser: But I don't want tax.
Greek: Then you can have penalty and fee and fee and tax.
Cruiser: But can I just have fee?
Greek: You can have fee or penalty and fee and tax.
Cruiser: But I said I don't want fee or tax or penalty.
Greek: In that case you can have fee and fee and penalty and tax and fee.
Cruiser: I think I will just go to Turkey.
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Old 24-11-2013, 02:33   #83
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Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!

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Originally Posted by NornaBiron View Post
More than 10% of our budget, we're off!
480 euros for 90 days is more than 10% of your budget???? You spend less than 20k euro cruising a full year? That would be pretty darn basic living.

Judy
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Old 24-11-2013, 02:46   #84
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480 euros for 90 days is more than 10% of your budget???? You spend less than 20k euro cruising a full year? That would be pretty darn basic living. Judy
Basic to some is comfort to others. Not all cruisers have large boats and dinghies to feed.
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Old 24-11-2013, 03:19   #85
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Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!

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Originally Posted by svBeBe View Post
480 euros for 90 days is more than 10% of your budget???? You spend less than 20k euro cruising a full year? That would be pretty darn basic living.

Judy
We are 14.6m loa, anchor almost every day, including throughout the winter, are self-reliant and live on £9000 a year. We have a good life, rent a car occassionally, a bike more often, eat well on board and occassionally eat ashore. We don't feel like we are missing out on anything.

The tax for us will amount to €1500. It would be very difficult for us to prove that the boat is based in Greece for a year as we do not use marinas and do not lift annually. Therefore it is unlikely that we'd be able to get the 30% discount for paying for a year up front without causing some personal difficulties.

Thus the tax is much nearer 15% of our annual budget and is simply unaffordable for us. I'm sure we're not the only ones who are in this position.

Oh, and by the way, our way of life is far from basic. We have a much better quality of life than we had when we were part of the 'keep up with the Jones's' rat race in the UK.
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Old 24-11-2013, 03:59   #86
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

ok after a Ouzo filled nite at cafe lotto on frid nite with the naxos fishermans union i have learned this on what the greek goverment propose , yes this cruising fee/tax has been passed in law but will not be implemented until accept in the govt budget for 2014/2015 is passed at moment there is great debate on this as the finance minister has stated that at the moment there is a primary budget surplus of 2.69 billion euros whilst others claim there is only a 860 million primary surplus but either way mrs Merkel is very happy .
so until this is resolved nothing will happen but they are determined to make happen
but what i have learned is this and the following figures are based on my old yacht of what i would have to pay in 2014

sailing Yacht

LOA 14.97 beam 4.75

Dekpa 38.14 euros

1/ 12 month cruising fee @ 100 X 14.97=1497 -30%=1047.90 euros +17% tax = 1226.04
2/ 90 day fee 10 X 14.97 X 449.1 + 17% = 525.44 euros
** note vat may go to 19%

Also to be Introduced is port charges and this yr several Island where doing this and Syros, Leros Symi and poros where implementing it with Finikas Marina at syros really making sure they got 100% collection and at the same time they where collecting data on what your last port was to see if the previous port collected any fees whilst many of the council run marinas collect marina fees vary the port fee charge will not
for example on poros you where charged 6 euros a nite finnikas 10 euros a nite Naxos 19.60 euros a nite Vilkada santorini 41.75 a nite .

besides the marina fees you will have to pay now also the following port charge based on my old yacht sizes 14.97 x 4.75 x .30=21.30 + 17% vat = 24.95 euros this charge is for a 48 hr period only so if you went to finnikas bay marina you want to stay one nite only you will have to pay 10 euros marina fee ( which includes 200 liters of water/elec) plus the port charges of 24.95= 34.95 for one nite or 44.95 for 2 nites the port charge will be reduce by 30% if you wish to stay a further nite or 2 .

How is this to be administered The Greek Gov are looking at the Symi port Model and will introduce Agents to do all the formalities so there will be an additional cost of between 50 & 60 euros
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Old 24-11-2013, 05:15   #87
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

here is some comparison figures based on the new greek govt cruising fees against turkey

this yr i spent 90 days in turkey and 22 nites in marinas and cost me the following ,

checked in mersin 1/ transit doc's , visa , agent fees 352 euros marina fee 137 euros 4 nites total of 489 euros

2/ Aydincik marina 14 days 70 euros ( included power and water )

3/ Kas 134 euros 2 nites plus you have to supply your own bow mooring lines

4/ finnike 2 nites plus agent check out fee 126 euros marina agent 20 euros

at total of 829 euros spent on fees

the new greek system will cost me based on 90 days plus a few marinas

dekpa 38.14 cruising permit 525.44 marina fees based on Naxos charges plus port charges for 22 days = marina fee 19.59 x 22 nites 431.42 port charges for first 2 days 14.97 x 4.75 x .30 =21.30 then next 20 days @ 14.97 x 4.75 x.30 =21.30 x20 days =426- 30 % discount =298.2 + first 2 days 21.30 = 319.50 + vat 17% = 373.81 euros plus 100 euros agent fee ( guide only fee ) for checking in and out .

= a total of 1468.81 euros

comparison is Greece for 22 nites = 1468.81 turkey = 829 euros

Note turkey marinas are more expensive so if i had spent 14 nites in another marinas other than Aydinck like mersin or finnikie i believe the costs would be more than greece and would of come to around 1711 euros in turkey for the same 90 day period
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Old 24-11-2013, 05:18   #88
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Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!

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Originally Posted by NornaBiron View Post
We are 14.6m loa, anchor almost every day, including throughout the winter, are self-reliant and live on £9000 a year. We have a good life, rent a car occassionally, a bike more often, eat well on board and occassionally eat ashore. We don't feel like we are missing out on anything.

The tax for us will amount to €1500. It would be very difficult for us to prove that the boat is based in Greece for a year as we do not use marinas and do not lift annually. Therefore it is unlikely that we'd be able to get the 30% discount for paying for a year up front without causing some personal difficulties.

Thus the tax is much nearer 15% of our annual budget and is simply unaffordable for us. I'm sure we're not the only ones who are in this position.

Oh, and by the way, our way of life is far from basic. We have a much better quality of life than we had when we were part of the 'keep up with the Jones's' rat race in the UK.
Proving being in Greek waters for 12 months:
I really think they will not be looking for this - just getting an annual payment in advance in return for 30% discount - a normal commercial practice. To ask someone to prove that they will be in Greek waters for the next 12 months is not possible - as know one knows the future! So this is just a diversion from the problem at hand.

What is more worrying was the reference to Vat being charged on top - at present the islands pay 16% where as mainland is 23%. That would leed to a major exodus.

If they want to start collecting port dues as well in the manner of another post - who would pay that for a rough concrete wall with no facilities? At the moment I have been variously charged between €7 and €28 for one night. €7 is fine - €28 is not - so I haven't been near port police for a long time - I haven't actually seen them in the Dodecanese.

As I need to make a decision on next years marina contract, I may well have to depart to Turkey - that would be a shame.
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Old 24-11-2013, 06:10   #89
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

I'm guessing that if you were willing to pay the fee for a year, the Greeks wouldn't be looking for proof that you were going to keep your boat there. Paying the tax would be proof of that.
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Old 24-11-2013, 06:47   #90
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

As someone who keeps a boat in Greece 365 days a year but only launches and sails for about 5 weeks of the year a €400 + VAT represents a €100 per week charge for me. As Im under 12m I ( apparently ) can't pay for just the month or two afloat

Considering that they will still be collecting port fees and one will still have to fanny about wasting precious holiday time in offices that may, or may not have DEKPA papers, ink for their stamps or be even interested in collecting a few Euros in port duty moving elsewhere is becoming an option.

Croatia is more expensive but closer to home, I can drive down if I want.

Certainly worth considering.
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