Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Alenka

But if you were a livaboard in Greece (or any where else with plans to transit greek waters) without a high speed internet connection would you really want to read thought lots and lots of OT pages to find the information you really wanted?

At the moment there already is 27 pages of meaningless discussion. It's meaningless because until we know exactly how the Greek ministry intends to implement the new tax, we don't really know what will exactly happen.

Quite frankly once an official document outlines the implementation, nothing that was said before will have any real value, so this thread should be closed and a fresh thread should be started.

Reading this thread will just confuse people

[gegroves]

Second the post to close this thread. Reading through all this is like reading a blog of the blind men describing an elephant. No one knows what will happen until someone departs their Greek marina and reports what actually happened to them; or the Greeks change what they have published about the reported tax law changes.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by gegroves

Second the post to close this thread. Reading through all this is like reading a blog of the blind men describing an elephant.

LOL

[jckb]

Originally Posted by NornaBiron

New Greek Cruising Tax | CA

The CA is the place to go for the best and most up to date information in my opinion. Forum threads inevitably get filled with opinions rather than facts.

Thanks for that! Yes, that page is kept up to date, and we don't publish anything on it unless it has been verified.

For those who criticise this thread. Yes, there's a lot of irrelevant material. But the opinions written have been invaluable in helping us frame the list of questions and suggestions we sent to the Greek Ministry of Maritime on 27 January (you can see those as an attachment to the CA post, above).

We've already had a first list of replies, and we're evaluating those. The Ministry read our web site pages, and confirm they found no errors on them as at 30 January. They will be helping us keep those pages up to date.

Jim Baerselman, for the CA.

[Alenka]

Originally Posted by athene

It's interesting to read the closing communique from Posidonia 2013, the international showcase for the Greek shipping and marine tourism industry, back in May this year (Posidonia - Posidonia Sea Tourism Forum, Press Releases). Some interesting facts emerge, such as the information that the 17,700 pleasure boats in Greece account for the employment of 40,000 people and that the annual contribution to the Greek economy from pleasure boat activity is around €600 million.

Speaker after speaker appears to have lamented the failure of Greece to attract its fair share of the marine leisure market, but I've no doubt their arguments too have fallen on deaf ears so far. It may need a debacle like the ill-fated Sardinia cruising tax in 2012 to convince the Greek government of their mistake.

Unfortunately the CA web site does not fill me with optimism over the Greek Tax. The Minisity has done nothing but confirm to the CA that 12m+ boats will only pay for the months they are in the water. Sub 12m boats will still have to pay for a full year regardless of if they stay for just a week or two.

Equally, as most husband and wife liveaboards will find it difficult to transit from Italy/Croatia to Turkey as a non-stop passage, I condiser it likely that many will have to pay the tax to secure just a couple of good nights of sleep along the way.

I quote the above, posted by Athene, because even an eleven year old with a grasp of math would quickly come to the conclusion this tax is self defeating.

If just 10% of the 17,700 boats the Greek say they have in their waters leave; And the reaming boats pay an average of 1,000€ each, the tax would yield €19.93 million. Reduce the €600 million income these boats contribute to the economy by 10% - €60 million - and alarms bells should start ringing. Their economy loses out to €40.07 million per annum!

This is not even factoring in the no shows this summer from nearby countries who will cruise elsewhere.

The only positive I can see is that the 700€ I will pay out in tax might mean that I find it easier to get a nice spot on along a quayside that would otherwise be packed tight. But that won't last because when all ready hard pressed Tavernas start to close willl those quayside have any appeal?

This is a lose, lose situation.

[goboatingnow]

Can I ask where u get the 600 million from.

Could I further suggest that criticism of the tax be delayed until we see the actual implementation. I have it on good authority that many representations have been made to the relevant Minister and we shall see what actually transpires. It may not even be implemented this year.

Dave

[Alenka]

I thought I had made it clear from the quote where the figure of €600 million had come from!

As for just sitting back and doing nothing until after the event is no way to conduct any form of business.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Alenka

I thought I had made it clear from the quote where the figure of €600 million had come from!

As for just sitting back and doing nothing until after the event is no way to conduct any form of business.

If you are making your own representations to the relevant ministry that's great.

If you're here tilting at windmills, given that very few facts have been confirmed and several sources have indicated that representations are ongoing, I see little point in a rant ? Well venting may be helping u )

I have friends in Greece, what that country has gone through is significant, a few cruisers caught on the crossfire is somewhat irrelevant

PS when I meant the 600 million I meant to say where u determined the 60 million. Ie why 10 %

Dave

[Alenka]

Firstly, I am not on a rant. I am putting forward a reasoned argument as to why this tax makes no sense at all and will only do Greece more harm than good.

Secondly, we all have freinds in Greece and we all sympathise with the hardship they are going through. However, driving away customers who want to spend money with you is never a good thing.

Yes, I have already made personal representations to the Greek Government as have many other individuals. And yes I am grateful that unions and commercial interest are also making representations. Hopefully what comes out of it will be a win, win situation.

[Barra]

Well ive booked my flights and will be in Greece early April. Hope the greeks know what they are doing by then!

If not I can see us having to pay the annual transit log fees of around 1200 euro when we put back in the water then get hit up with a double whammy for the cruising tax at the next port down the road of another 1300 euro!

Ouch!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Alenka

Firstly, I am not on a rant. I am putting forward a reasoned argument as to why this tax makes no sense at all and will only do Greece more harm than good.

Secondly, we all have freinds in Greece and we all sympathise with the hardship they are going through. However, driving away customers who want to spend money with you is never a good thing.

Yes, I have already made personal representations to the Greek Government as have many other individuals. And yes I am grateful that unions and commercial interest are also making representations. Hopefully what comes out of it will be a win, win situation.

We all agree, but most boats in Greece are probably Greek owned or charter and most of those will not be leaving. Furthermore I suspect that some compromise will be reached for short term visitors ( typically like the Italian invasion).

After that you have either long stay visitors who have enough money , ( ie wealthy Northern Europeans ) or long stay cruisers who don't have or won't have the money, I suspect the nett effect will not be quite as dramatic as you think.

We shall see, Greece tends to surprise

Dave

[hoppy]

I suspect that the exodus will be quite small. Sure Greece will suddenly be more expensive but it is not pricing itself out of business.

I've been looking at Turkish marinas and the prices there make my current marina, Corfu, look dirt cheap, even if I add another 1300 for my likely tax. Admittedly the facilities do look much better. I have noticed that pretty much all of the marinas there look to be a long way from airports and the cheap marinas are very isolated. Not a problem for someone who does one 4-6 week sail per year, but I like to do a few short trips, which adds to the cost if I have to take an extra day off work to make the long weekend worthwhile.

I think that the principle of tax makes perfect sense and will not be the "disaster" some people are predicting. As long as they remove the 11.99-12.00 anomaly and make short visits more sensibly priced, then there is little to complain about other than that Greece will be less cheap.

I do hope however that the free-loader pieces of junk that litter some town quays do move as a result of the tax.

Whist I originally was going to jump out of principle, now my moving from Corfu will be solely based on greener pastures and big picture financials.

[yeloya]

I don't understand why people is getting so anxious about this tax.. Greek gövernment has announced today that 9,16 billion € worth tax hasn't been paid only in 2013..
Don't worry, this will be one of these..

Cheers

Yeloya

[Barra]

gotta laugh at that Yeloya!

Hope you are right but either way the uncertainty will do more and more harm the longer it drags on. Said it before and ill say it again - FARCE@!!!!!!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Barra

gotta laugh at that Yeloya!

Hope you are right but either way the uncertainty will do more and more harm the longer it drags on. Said it before and ill say it again - FARCE@!!!!!!

Taxes implemented do harm , taxes un implemented do no harm , a universal truth !!

In the context of greeces history on tax , this is model legislation, far from a farce methinks

Dave