Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[athene]

If it strengthens your case, Jim, it might be worth the CA pointing out that one of the premises of the new tax, namely to bring Greece into line with its neighbouring countries, is false.

Croatia has just introduced a new Navigation, safety and pollution prevention fee from 1 January 2014 which represents a substantial reduction in cruising taxes for most foreign yachts entering Croatian waters and even Montenegro (hitherto regarded as one of the most expensive Mediterranean cruising destinations) has a considerably cheaper tax structure than the proposed Greek one.

Turkey only makes a relatively modest charge for a transit log on entering, with no additional impost. Italy I haven't visited for a while, but the cruising tax they introduced in 2012 applies only to Italian-owned yachts and reports suggest that if there is supposed to be any special charge on foreign visiting yachts then no-one bothers to levy it.

[Alenka]

Thanks Jim,

I will be signing up to the CA at the London Boat Show!

I brought my concerns to the attention of the RYA but they seem to be a little slow of the mark with this one. Maybe there is a lot going on behind the scenes!!

Might I suggest that people not only write to their MP but also direct to the Greek Embassy (you can email) drawing their intention to the breach in law. I cannot do any harm.

[jckb]

Athene, thanks for the reminder about other countries. Yes, we'd picked up on the new Croatia cruise tax. You'll find a lot of this detail on my web site under the "Going Foreign" label, go to "Countries". If I've missed anything there, stick a comment in! I'm in Southampton, so we may meet up sometime if you wish - to compare 406 with 435's perhaps?

Alenka, thanks. I expect to be available from the CA stand on at least the first Sunday, and the last weekend of the boat show">London Boat show. Yes, the more members we have, the better the budget for following up these legal shenanigans! Whatever, we'll be preparing a news item for the Boat show covering what we know, and signing people up to receive email news about changes.

JimB

[hoppy]

I'm going to the London boat show and just checked the list of exhibitors, no sign of any official Greek presence. It would have been interesting to see the people on the stand getting stressed out dealing with questions about the tax.

Given the number of British yachts in Greece and the importance of tourism in general to the Greek economy, I would have thought a presence there would be smart regardless.

[athene]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Given the number of British yachts in Greece and the importance of tourism in general to the Greek economy, I would have thought a presence there would be smart regardless.

Unfortunately, while we're all pressing on an open door when it comes to the Greek tourism authorities, that's not the case with the fiscal ones.

It's interesting to read the closing communique from Posidonia 2013, the international showcase for the Greek shipping and marine tourism industry, back in May this year (Posidonia - Posidonia Sea Tourism Forum, Press Releases). Some interesting facts emerge, such as the information that the 17,700 pleasure boats in Greece account for the employment of 40,000 people and that the annual contribution to the Greek economy from pleasure boat activity is around €600 million.

Speaker after speaker appears to have lamented the failure of Greece to attract its fair share of the marine leisure market, but I've no doubt their arguments too have fallen on deaf ears so far. It may need a debacle like the ill-fated Sardinia cruising tax in 2012 to convince the Greek government of their mistake.

[athene]

Originally Posted by jckb

Athene, thanks for the reminder about other countries. Yes, we'd picked up on the new Croatia cruise tax. You'll find a lot of this detail on my web site under the "Going Foreign" label, go to "Countries". If I've missed anything there, stick a comment in! I'm in Southampton, so we may meet up sometime if you wish - to compare 406 with 435's perhaps?

JimB

I couldn't find anything on your website detailing the charges under the new Navigation, safety and pollution prevention fee or, indeed the Sojourn Tax, Jim - perhaps I need new specs or a better mouse!

I've posted details on the Croatia page of the World Cruising and Sailing Wiki (you'll note there's already a link to your Croatia webpage there), which you might like to check for consistency with your information. It's relevant to this thread IMHO since Croatia is actually cutting yacht imposts significantly at a time when Greece is increasing them.

Yes, it would be good to meet (especially now that I'm a fully signed-up member of the CA). We live in Boldre in the New Forest but come into Southampton regularly, so we're only separated by 16 miles (and 29 inches!).

GORDON

[yeloya]

This morning I've a chat with one yacht agency and the harbour manager in one of the Dodocanes islands. What they both say;
-there isn't yet anything officially notified,
-this tax is likely to be "softened" if not totally ignored and remains unpractable. They gave examples of many other laws/regulations that was treated similarly.
-They have also said (something which wasn't said here or maybe I missed..), the fee will be applicable per month and not per year. In other words, if someone visits Greece for a month, then you pay 1/12 of the yearly fee. (for 2 months 2/12, three months 3/12, and so on..)
If someone would like to stay one year than the full fee is to be payed but they will be eligeable for 30 % discount.
One other thing; greek commercial boats , including charter boats will not pay the half, but they will pay NOTHING..

Cheers

Yeloya

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by yeloya

This morning I've a chat with one yacht agency and the harbour manager in one of the Dodocanes islands. What they both say;
-there isn't yet anything officially notified,
-this tax is likely to be "softened" if not totally ignored and remains unpractable. They gave examples of many other laws/regulations that was treated similarly.
-They have also said (something which wasn't said here or maybe I missed..), the fee will be applicable per month and not per year. In other words, if someone visits Greece for a month, then you pay 1/12 of the yearly fee. (for 2 months 2/12, three months 3/12, and so on..)
If someone would like to stay one year than the full fee is to be payed but they will be eligeable for 30 % discount.
One other thing; greek commercial boats , including charter boats will not pay the half, but they will pay NOTHING..

Cheers

Yeloya

My experience is often in Greece, what the people on the "ground" say is often wrong or inaccurate actually. WHat is happening in Greece is nothing like anything gone before.

"the fee will be applicable per month and not per year. In other words, if someone visits Greece for a month, then you pay 1/12 of the yearly fee. (for 2 months 2/12, three months 3/12, and so on..) "

There is definitely some undercurrent of trying to deal with visiting boats, I know that from my friend, The main issue seems to be to ensure that Greeks don't try and escape the tax by basing the boat outside greece and returning for the holidays etc.

At this stage we have the law Gazetted, well have to see in the new year what the implementation details are.

I do feel , based on feedback in Preveza, that the marinas are all " talking it down" because they are scared on a flight of boats, so perhaps these are not the best sources of information.

Dave

[yeloya]

Hi Dave,

I don't know yr experience but I am living in this geography and I have business relation and many friend from this industry mostly in Dodocanese. I occasionally meet local authorities as well. My experience is just the opposite: the laws are made in Athens but are imposed, partly imposed, differently imposed or sometimes not imposed at all at the sole discretion of LOCAL AUTHORITIES..
Again, they said that said that they don't have a clear idea on what's going on and the whatever the outcome is, the first paragraph above will apply
Moreover, what the harbour manager in Preveze will do can be totally than the one in Rhodes will..
Cheers
Yeloya

[Alenka]

This is the latest I have from Athens;

"I spoke with the Greek union of commercial yachts about this new duty that will be imposed. For the moment, we have the law but the Minister hasn't issue a decision about how this duty will be paid and when. Therefore, there is no need to worry about this for the moment. It is 99.9% that this will be paid in 2014 because without a Minister's decision the tax offices and the port authorities cannot collect money for this new duty. I will look the subject closely and I will send you any new updates about this".

[chuckr]

this is an email we sent to the visit greece greek tourism office - i think the greeks are going to learn a very hard lesson if they continue down this path but that is up to them - and we have just made arrangements to winter over in tunisia next year as we fear a lot of boats will be leaving greece with some coming down here and space is a premium


Dear sir - we are an American couple who sailed our 40' - 12.19m - sailboat across the Atlantic last May and are currently over wintering in Tunisia. We had planned to visit your embassy in Tunis to ascertain if we could get a long term visa to over winter in Greece next year.

Nowever, we have leaned that the Greek government has just put on a new cruising tax for all boats in Greek water and for us it would cost us 1219 euros to enter Greek waters. We are not rich and this is simply beyond our means. We left the USA over 6 years ago and while we have paid some fees to enter other countries, nothing comes close to these charges.

We have had other cruisers talk to us about the new tax and we all agree we unfortunately be skipping Greece. At this time with the Greek waters essentially closed to us we plan to cruise the Italian coast and down to Albania before returning to Tunisia or to Israel or Lebanon.

God promises a safe anchorage, not necessarily a smooth passage; so rig heavy, reef early, and pray often
chuck patty and svsoulmates
In Port Yasmine Hammamet Tunisia

[Palarran]

Chuck,
I assume you are a foreign flagged vessel so if you calculate the cost of a transit log you will find it is almost identical to the new cruising tax. Have fun cruising the East coast of Italy. I'd guess that you will find there is a reason most of the Italians leave that coast and sail to Croatia, Montenegro, or Greece each year. If you do end up in Croatia or Montenegro I guarantee you will find the costs are not dissimilar to what Greece has imposed and had charged in years past with their transit logs. The biggest change is for EU registered boats and specifically Greek flagged boats. Now they have to pay what non-EU boats have been paying all along.

Not to be self-centered, but if the new tax doesn't cost me any more than I'd be paying anyway, and the result of the new tax is less boats cruising in areas that we are, then it's a positive for me. I like the area so much I just informed my Greek marina we would be staying for the 2014/15 season also. Maybe my berthing rates will actually go down, or my choices for marinas will go up. In any case, for a foreign flagged boat the net effect is near zero monetarily.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Hi Dave,

I don't know yr experience but I am living in this geography and I have business relation and many friend from this industry mostly in Dodocanese. I occasionally meet local authorities as well. My experience is just the opposite: the laws are made in Athens but are imposed, partly imposed, differently imposed or sometimes not imposed at all at the sole discretion of LOCAL AUTHORITIES..
Again, they said that said that they don't have a clear idea on what's going on and the whatever the outcome is, the first paragraph above will apply
Moreover, what the harbour manager in Preveze will do can be totally than the one in Rhodes will..
Cheers
Yeloya

Atila,
The problem with assuming that it is up to the harbor manager is having a paid receipt if you cruise anywhere else in Greece. I'm not going to be constantly worried that every new harbor is the one who stops me and imposes the full tax.

Your concern for charter boats is definitely valid, but shouldn't they have been getting a transit log in the past anyway? Also, if a 13 meter charter boat does have to pay the tax wouldn't it be insignificant? 13 meters x 100 euros x 3 months use equals around 400 euros, divided by 12 weeks of use would cost the charterers maybe 35 euros per week. So you pay what, 4000 euro for the week of charter anyway, so its maybe 1 or 2 percent added cost. Am I missing something?

[athene]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Chuck,
If you do end up in Croatia or Montenegro I guarantee you will find the costs are not dissimilar to what Greece has imposed and had charged in years past with their transit logs. The biggest change is for EU registered boats and specifically Greek flagged boats. Now they have to pay what non-EU boats have been paying all along.

Not true - you may have to pay out to Chuck on your guarantee! Croatia has just changed its tax regime so that most yachts visiting, whether EU or foreign-flagged, will now pay substantially less in taxes than they would in Greece, especially for longer stays. Depending on the size of your yacht and length of stay, even Montenegro is now cheaper than Greece (e.g. €750 for a year in a 12-17 metre yacht compared with €1200 - €1700).

You can check the information on the World Cruising and Sailing Wiki (Croatia - a Cruising Guide on the World Cruising and Sailing Wiki) and do the sums yourself.

[chuckr]

[QUOTE=Palarran;1422599]Chuck,
I assume you are a foreign flagged vessel so if you calculate the cost of a transit log you will find it is almost identical to the new cruising tax.


palarran -- not to start anything here and yes we are an American boat -- but at a 12.19m boat out cost would be 1219euros -- i think that may be a bit beyond the cost of a tranist log -- and as said above costs in other countries have come down -- now if you are going to try and make the claim that the cost for greater than 12 meter boats is month i doubt your argument holds water as why would someone in a 11m boat pay 400euros on day 1 and i show up for a month and pay 121 euros --
it will be interesting to see how the greeks implement it

for us we have already made our choice - we just reserved a spot here in port yasmine for next winter as if the greeks do something really dumb there may be a run for dockage outside greece and Tunisia is a really great place