Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by athene

Hey, don't be so bloody rude. All Alenka was trying to do was keep the thread on subject, which is about the new Greek cruising tax, If you want to continue discussing potential VAT obligation, then start a separate thread.

[krissteyn]

For those of you who are not happy with the cost of cruising - perhaps you need to research Sea-steading , its not only possible , it is actually happening - and yes its not free, but have a google at it

Kris

[madsb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Firstly by international agreement countries DO own the sea around their coast upto 12 miles out and can legitimately treat it like theirs" land"

An issue I have been thinking of in relation to this new Greek tax is the right to Innocent passage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . Would you be able to avoid this tax as long as you follow the provisions of the UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA on innocent passage? I would think that this exception would be most relevant when coastal cruising in the areas where Turkish and Greek territories are close to each other.

Another issue I have been thinking about is that the Greek government is effectively giving their own citizens preferential treatment in comparison to other EU citizens since they are giving a rebate on boats staying all of the year in Greece. I am not a lawyer or sure abut this at all, but I am wondering if this part is legal for them to do?

[athene]

Originally Posted by Aikiguy

I would love to know what will happen if I bring my 46 foot US manufactured boat into the EU? Do I have to pay taxes upon getting there, is there a time that I have to be out of the country by? Information on all of this is flimsy at best. So far this forum is the only information I have been able to get of real people with real keels in the water.

You'll find much of this information on the Greece page of the World Cruising & Sailing Wiki (Greece - a Cruising Guide on the World Cruising and Sailing Wiki). Some of the information may be a little out of date, but it was compiled by 'real people with real keels in the water'.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by krissteyn

For those of you who are not happy with the cost of cruising - perhaps you need to research Sea-steading , its not only possible , it is actually happening - and yes its not free, but have a google at it

Ahh! Radio Caroline! I remember it well! Broadcasting pop music to UK, financed by advertising, hated by record companies and the BBC as unfair competition . . .

[beneteau-500]

well My view is this i applaud the greek govt for introducing this tax and for once it is showing its self to be acting responsibly and if you look at other parts of the world they have a similar forms of tax for cruising yachts albeit it might not be as much as the New Greek crusing tax the Bahamas $250 turkey 352 euros and as some people have indicated Croatia is expensive for the past 20 yrs i have been sailing around Greece and all they have charged me each yr is around 38.25 euros for my Dekpa but have to admit it varies from where you check In if coming from outside greece, Santorini is the cheapest so far for me at 19 euros .

But what i don't agree with is giving charter companies etc discounts they receive huge discounts as it is ie mooring fees example 15 mt private yacht at Alimos marina 9000 euros for 12 months a charter yacht same size 2000 euros but this might change now this marina has been privatized, they receive 50% discounts on mooring fees when they stop on islands along with port charges also being reduced.

will this new charge stop people from charting Yachts No
will this charge effect the local economy on Islands if private yachts stop coming because of this new cruising tax No Not one bit why because 99.9% of the tourism between April and October comes from people who book package holidays etc

and based on facts ie Naxos population 18,000 but summer trade numbers go up to 80,000 but if you go down to the port you may find 5 private yachts out of 20 that are there and those 5 private yachts there may spend 40 euros a day and most stay for 2 days with a total spend of 400 euros between yachts which is not much so i dont see this new Cruising tax having a financial impact on local islands if yachts decide to stay away from Greece.

Because where ever you go in the med you will be it by charges albeit go to turkey pay fair cursing fees but get charged high marina fees

[jckb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I would quite frankly ask those RYA lawyers to give you back your money

<snip>

In Spain despite what is claimed above, the circulation tax is only applied to tax residents of Spain , there are several conditions that can make you tax resident , but the simple one is being there for 183 days out of a calendar year. In which case they impose a local tax exactly as they impose it on the locals. Note it is not a wealth tax , it's to do with the pollution rating of your engine ( which was a way to round the EU restrictions ) Ireland for example has something very similar on cars. Such taxes are not unusual in the EU.

<snip>

That should do it for now

Brilliant post, Dave.

I'd just take slight issue with the Spain bit above. The "Pollution Tax", as it is now called, is only charged as a penalty for those who have boats in spain, and don't declare their taxable status; or, if already taxable, the import of a means of transport. There's a 30 day period of grace, after which the penalty kicks in. This shifts the payment from being a barrier to trade (effectively, it was an import tax), to being a penalty for not making an appropriate tax declaration.

All of the issues being discussed on this thread are summarised in my website. Where possible, I give links to relevant government sources.

Dave, "goboatingnow" was a diligent proof reader of those pages, most helpful. Errors remaining are mine, but hopefully reading those pages is easier than ploughing through original documents!

JimB

[jckb]

My apologies to readers. I've been declared "a commercial member", so
links to my web site to give answers to questions (as they were in the post above before removal) are now forbidden. I'm afraid I don't have time to transpose lumps of text instead, so I won't be able to contribute much any more.

[sailorboy1]

leaving out all the politics and rants:

has Greece signed these new taxes/fees into law yet?

[beneteau-500]

Yes the new cruising tax is now officially law but the greek law is complicated in that now it has been passed and it has to be also included in the budget and at the moment the euro group who have funded the bail out have been looking at the Greek 2014/15 budget but the Greeks have not finalized the budget as there is discrepancies in the figures of what will be raised through all the new tax laws and these include the self employed from paying i think 26% tax to having to pay Now 40% once the budget figures are finalized and passed by the Greeks and the euro group Greece will receive its next bail out money now forecast to be 9 dec and all the new taxes for 2014 will come into force

[athene]

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

will this charge effect the local economy on Islands if private yachts stop coming because of this new cruising tax No Not one bit why because 99.9% of the tourism between April and October comes from people who book package holidays etc

Can't agree. We've cruised every Greek island except Rhodes, Kea and Andros and encountered dozens of tavernas that only exist because of the cruising trade. Some have even invested in their own pontoons and mooring lines; others in their own buoys for visitors. For example, just look at the entry for Kalamos on the World Cruising & Sailing Wiki and then decide if George the local taverna owner and unofficial harbourmaster is going to be happy with the new cruising tax.

We've also dined in Greek tavernas throughout the Ionian, Aegean and all the gulfs during the Spring and early Autumn periods, when yachties have often outnumbered land tourists by three to one.

Finally, don't forget that much of the revenue from 'people who book package holidays' doesn't feed into the local economy but to international corporations or wealthy individuals based outside Greece.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by athene

.......We've cruised every Greek island except Rhodes, Kea and Andros and encountered dozens of tavernas that only exist because of the cruising trade. Some have even invested in their own pontoons and mooring lines; others in their own buoys for visitors. For example, just look at the entry for Kalamos on the World Cruising & Sailing Wiki and then decide if George the local taverna owner and unofficial harbourmaster is going to be happy with the new cruising tax.

We've also dined in Greek tavernas throughout the Ionian, Aegean and all the gulfs during the Spring and early Autumn periods, when yachties have often outnumbered land tourists by three to one.

Finally, don't forget that much of the revenue from 'people who book package holidays' doesn't feed into the local economy but to international corporations or wealthy individuals based outside Greece.

I agree 100%.
Although of course not universal (and not even the majority), there are many tavernas that survive only due to trade from yachties.

And yes, although those those on 'package' holidays boost economy to some degree (car hire, souvenirs etc), they are often provided with all their meals, limiting what is fed into the local economy.

Tavernas are not the only ones to suffer. I was speaking to the local butcher yesterday who said he relied heavily on the trade from visiting boats from April to September. In today's economic climate fasolia and fakes (beans and lentils) are starting to dominate the diets of many Greeks. It is not the charterers that this particular butcher attracts (they tend to eat out while on holidays), but the summer cruising boats.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jckb

Brilliant post, Dave.

I'd just take slight issue with the Spain bit above. The "Pollution Tax", as it is now called, is only charged as a penalty for those who have boats in spain, and don't declare their taxable status; or, if already taxable, the import of a means of transport. There's a 30 day period of grace, after which the penalty kicks in. This shifts the payment from being a barrier to trade (effectively, it was an import tax), to being a penalty for not making an appropriate tax declaration.

All of the issues being discussed on this thread are summarised in my website. Where possible, I give links to relevant government sources.

Dave, "goboatingnow" was a diligent proof reader of those pages, most helpful. Errors remaining are mine, but hopefully reading those pages is easier than ploughing through original documents!

JimB

You are quite correct Jim, its only applies to those people that are in effect dodging residency rules and not properly importing the boat into spain. It all came as a bit of a shock to the hordes of people staying under the Spanish tax radar , especially those with holidays homes, etc

dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I agree 100%.
Although of course not universal, there are many tavernas that survive only due to trade from yachties.

And yes, although those those on 'package' holidays boost economy to some degree (car hire, souvenirs etc), they are often provided with all their meals, limiting what is fed into the local economy.

Tavernas are not the only ones to suffer. I was speaking to the local butcher yesterday who said he relied heavily on the trade from visiting boats from April to September. In today's economic climate fasolia and fakes (beans and lentils) are starting to dominate the diets of many Greeks. It is not the charterers that this particular butcher attracts (they tend to eat out while on holidays), but the summer cruising boats.

oh please, the revenue from cruisers ( as opposed to the two week bridgage) is small as to be insignificant. The vast vast majority of money brought in tourism is in the form of land based travellers and package holidays. The money doesnt just go to multinational travel companies, it goes to local hotels, restaurants etc

Do you really think that greece would penalise its main stream tourist market , not likely

Lets not kid ourselves as to our monetary importance.

dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by madsb

An issue I have been thinking of in relation to this new Greek tax is the right to Innocent passage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . Would you be able to avoid this tax as long as you follow the provisions of the UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA on innocent passage? I would think that this exception would be most relevant when coastal cruising in the areas where Turkish and Greek territories are close to each other.

Another issue I have been thinking about is that the Greek government is effectively giving their own citizens preferential treatment in comparison to other EU citizens since they are giving a rebate on boats staying all of the year in Greece. I am not a lawyer or sure abut this at all, but I am wondering if this part is legal for them to do?

I don't think the greeks will attempt to enforce it on yachts not making landfall in greece. But you need to look up the definition of innocent passage anyway

dave