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Old 28-11-2013, 15:54   #136
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

Sorry... Didn't think I was being rude. Several people were discussing the total costs of cruising in Greece. Would be happy to discuss VAT in a different thread.

Guy
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Old 28-11-2013, 16:20   #137
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

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Is this what you do in the boat selling business? Sorry, could not resist as this does not sounds respectable ... hope not to cross your path while doing business ...
First off, I advise clients on boat systems and repairs. Not sell boats.

Considering all the threads related to registering offshore to avoid very modest US taxes. I would say shaving 4" of your boat length is no big deal.

Should be easy enough to do if you were to get a state rego. Tell them the LOA is wrong on the doc. As long as it doesn't affect your fee category with the state doubt they would care.

Considering the amount of fraud against the US taxpayer in yachting 4" is not something I'd worry over.

Dick DeVos's (Amway, govenor candidate in MI 2006) Cayman registered 200' yacht was just in St Augustine. You're OK with that fraud, but not 4" in greece???

Oh, and there's nothing to suggest a sailing catamaran ISN'T a pontoon boat according to the state of Michigan!
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Old 28-11-2013, 17:06   #138
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

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Originally Posted by Aikiguy View Post
Sorry... Didn't think I was being rude. Several people were discussing the total costs of cruising in Greece. Would be happy to discuss VAT in a different thread.

Guy
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Think you can be forgiven Guy as you are not from these parts.

VAT is the European sales tax added to just about everything you buy, but unlike the USA the price shown in EU shops is generally inclusive of VAT - its not added on at the till.

If you are a non european union citizen you can bring and cruise your boat in EU water for about 18 months and do not have to pay any VAT (around 20-23% of the boats value) and/or import duty. The rules get fuzzy as some countries impose time limits more stringently than others but there are bolt holes such as Gibralter, Turkey, Albania, Channel Islands that are outside the EU where you can go to stop the clock ticking.

If you tried to sell your boat to an EU citizen then the buyer would have to pay VAT on the deal, but this is where it gets very complex for all sorts of reasons. However in your context it is also a mute point as it is illegal to sell a boat which does not have a certificate of EU conformity. American boat builders, such as Hunter Legend, generally certify the boats they sell into Europe but not the near identical boats produced for their home market.

The Greek cruising tax, if ratified, would apply to your visit into Greek waters. In the past this was a token gesture but the new charges are pretty steep and seen by many of us as the thin end of the wedge.

Croatia joined the EU this year but still wants to charge non Croatian flagged vessels for cruising its waters. Technically it is illegal to charge citizens from another member country but it was still going on this summer.

The situation in Greece and Croatia should be of concern to everyone, because if the Greeks and Croatians do it then other countries will probably follow suit and this will mean every time you pass from one country into another you will pay.

In certain areas of Spain the authorities are already checking out visiting liveaboards that stay in their waters for more than 6 months at a time and hitting them with a form of wealth tax!
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Old 28-11-2013, 17:34   #139
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

I am new in this forum and this is my first post-althoug i meant to start asking questions. I am amazed!! In a bad way. I don't understand the concept of paying any taxes for cruising in any country, when you are on anchor. If i don't use infrastructures what am i paying for? Countries don't own the waters. The fish do. Is this happening everywhere? If it is so long dreams of buying a boat. A boat was for me a symbol of freedom and lay back life. But it seems it is a lot more complicated than that.

I am Greek by the way and live in the US. So just to be fair, i have to make 2 comments a) nobody in any place likes to pay taxes. More in a place like Greece that the government robes your money and doesn't do anything for the citizens. But that doesn't change the fact that most people don't escape the taxes. only rich with friends in high chairs can escape them. b) It is ridiculous the argument we spend the money and move the economy. I mean come on. Yes people spent anywhere money but this argument gives grounds to illegal immigrants to say "If the don't give me green card i will leave and go somewhere else where they can appreciate my dollar" And guess what! They spent more - they actually have to pay clothing, rent, lawyer fees, transportation bla bla bla. On boats you can cook on it and live rent free. Come on.

It always come to a price for something. So 5 dollars to visit Borat's country is simply way to much (joking) and 100 dollars is a bargain to visit the French riviera for a night. But thats for a marina. If you are just cruising or on anchor WHY PAY???????

sorry i don't mean to offend anyone but i am just pissed with the lack of freedom nowadays and the fact that people count it on money units...oh i only have to pay 3 units of non freedom- boy thats cheap i got a bargain. Cheap or not when u pay for something that should be for free there is a problem
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Old 28-11-2013, 17:44   #140
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

Its pretty common worldwide to have to pay some fee.

I like your idea if non freedom units, but its getting expensive to be free!
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Old 28-11-2013, 17:51   #141
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

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Originally Posted by Tsofli View Post
I am new in this forum and this is my first post-althoug i meant to start asking questions. I am amazed!! In a bad way. I don't understand the concept of paying any taxes for cruising in any country, when you are on anchor. If i don't use infrastructures what am i paying for? Countries don't own the waters. The fish do. Is this happening everywhere? If it is so long dreams of buying a boat. A boat was for me a symbol of freedom and lay back life. But it seems it is a lot more complicated than that.

I am Greek by the way and live in the US. So just to be fair, i have to make 2 comments a) nobody in any place likes to pay taxes. More in a place like Greece that the government robes your money and doesn't do anything for the citizens. But that doesn't change the fact that most people don't escape the taxes. only rich with friends in high chairs can escape them. b) It is ridiculous the argument we spend the money and move the economy. I mean come on. Yes people spent anywhere money but this argument gives grounds to illegal immigrants to say "If the don't give me green card i will leave and go somewhere else where they can appreciate my dollar" And guess what! They spent more - they actually have to pay clothing, rent, lawyer fees, transportation bla bla bla. On boats you can cook on it and live rent free. Come on.

It always come to a price for something. So 5 dollars to visit Borat's country is simply way to much (joking) and 100 dollars is a bargain to visit the French riviera for a night. But thats for a marina. If you are just cruising or on anchor WHY PAY???????

sorry i don't mean to offend anyone but i am just pissed with the lack of freedom nowadays and the fact that people count it on money units...oh i only have to pay 3 units of non freedom- boy thats cheap i got a bargain. Cheap or not when u pay for something that should be for free there is a problem
sadly this is the way of the world....in 50 years time there will be an oxygen tax!

allready in the uk the local council will charge you a bedroom tax ,and another tax if you have a nice view from your window!
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Old 28-11-2013, 17:57   #142
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

Sadly people accept it. Like saying sadly. I am not better than you of course. What if i declare my bedroom independent country and go to the state to declare my independence and take it to the court, it will give me a few years right? I can then register my boat on my own country, and dont recognize taxes from other countries, and if they want to arrest me abroad they have to contact the ministry of foreign affairs back in my bedroom-country where they need to ask for a hearing from the king and prime minister and president ME.
But first i have to ask if it is okay to do so the wife. Darn it an other case of taxation without representation!!! I need to declare my independence from her dominion.

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Old 28-11-2013, 17:57   #143
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Forgive me but I will defer to the advice given by the RYA legal department and the specialised marine lawyers they referred me to.

This thread is not the place for detailed VAT discussion
I agree, my own advice is merely based on actually trading in boats in Europe. , for another thread.

Ps lawyers know nothing about VAT. Tax experts might do.

Anyway as you say for another thread

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Old 28-11-2013, 17:58   #144
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

I really need to start using punctuation marks.
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Old 28-11-2013, 18:30   #145
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Think you can be forgiven Guy as you are not from these parts.

VAT is the European sales tax added to just about everything you buy, but unlike the USA the price shown in EU shops is generally inclusive of VAT - its not added on at the till.

If you are a non european union citizen you can bring and cruise your boat in EU water for about 18 months and do not have to pay any VAT (around 20-23% of the boats value) and/or import duty. The rules get fuzzy as some countries impose time limits more stringently than others but there are bolt holes such as Gibralter, Turkey, Albania, Channel Islands that are outside the EU where you can go to stop the clock ticking.

If you tried to sell your boat to an EU citizen then the buyer would have to pay VAT on the deal, but this is where it gets very complex for all sorts of reasons. However in your context it is also a mute point as it is illegal to sell a boat which does not have a certificate of EU conformity. American boat builders, such as Hunter Legend, generally certify the boats they sell into Europe but not the near identical boats produced for their home market.

The Greek cruising tax, if ratified, would apply to your visit into Greek waters. In the past this was a token gesture but the new charges are pretty steep and seen by many of us as the thin end of the wedge.

Croatia joined the EU this year but still wants to charge non Croatian flagged vessels for cruising its waters. Technically it is illegal to charge citizens from another member country but it was still going on this summer.

The situation in Greece and Croatia should be of concern to everyone, because if the Greeks and Croatians do it then other countries will probably follow suit and this will mean every time you pass from one country into another you will pay.

In certain areas of Spain the authorities are already checking out visiting liveaboards that stay in their waters for more than 6 months at a time and hitting them with a form of wealth tax!
I would quite frankly ask those RYA lawyers to give you back your money

Let's dispel some myths

( a) VAT is a transaction tax , which must be accounted for on all imports , exports , sales and purchase. It's not a sales tax per say , nor is it an asset tax as you can pay it repeatedly on transactions associated with an asset.


As a non EU tax resident ( nothing to do with citizenship ) you have " exactly " , not " about" , 18 months relief from VAT on an private vessel, the clock technically starts at the 12 mile point. , but in practice from the first point of call in the EU. There is no paperwork associated with process nor do you apply in advance. You merely keep records to show compliance. It's know as TIR ( temporary import relief )

No EU country can change those time limits , and the rules DO NOT get fuzzy , more likely some customs agent simply doesn't understand them. After 18 months. continuous presence inside The Customs Union of the EU, you must import the boat and pay vat,local taxes etc. enforcement is generally very lax on TIR compliance

Note that all you have to do to reset the vat clock is to leave the customs union , the minimum time away is not specified but typically proof you went outside the customs union is sufficient , ( marina receipt , passport stamp , fuel bill , etc)

Note the Channel Islands are NOT outside the customs union of the EU. Gibraltar is in the territory of the EU , but IS outside of be custom union. A fact Spanish customs tend to argue about !


Croatia has effectively up till the end of 2013 to regularise its tax codes. They will not be able to impose differential taxes on EU boats next year. They will continue to tax non EU boats.

In Spain despite what is claimed above, the circulation tax is only applied to tax residents of Spain , there are several conditions that can make you tax resident , but the simple one is being there for 183 days out of a calendar year. In which case they impose a local tax exactly as they impose it on the locals. Note it is not a wealth tax , it's to do with the pollution rating of your engine ( which was a way to round the EU restrictions ) Ireland for example has something very similar on cars. Such taxes are not unusual in the EU.

Note it does not apply if you are not a tax resident.

The Greek parliament has already passed the legislation in regards the tax , it's merely awaits signing into law. I see no reason why it will not be. At €10/metre per month( above 12 m) it's hardly going to break the bank for most cruising visitors. Below 12m it's less then €50 euros a month. , seriously is this an issue , I mean diesel is nearly €2/litre in marinas!!

The Croatian tax is a small cruising fee , there is no evidence it is being considered elsewhere in the EU, and it will not apply to EU boats next year. ( unless the Croats apply it to domestic boats )


Note a boat in the EU under TIR may not be sold unless first imported. , hence it's the seller that technically pays the vat. ( and any buyer should ensure its done that way as it takes advantage of financial depreciation rather then market value pricing ) on this case VAT is not complex.

Compliance with the RCD , ie the CE mark , can now be done after importation , using post construction certification , which allows US or non CE boats to get a certificate.

If you come access non VAT UK registered boats for sale outside the UK, You need to carefully understand where the VAT liability resides before proceeding with a purchase. You cannot discharge a vat liability in one EU country in another EU country.


Vat is simply not an issue for the non tax resident visitor.

That should do it for now

Dave
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Old 28-11-2013, 18:50   #146
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I am new in this forum and this is my first post-althoug i meant to start asking questions. I am amazed!! In a bad way. I don't understand the concept of paying any taxes for cruising in any country, when you are on anchor. If i don't use infrastructures what am i paying for? Countries don't own the waters. The fish do. Is this happening everywhere? If it is so long dreams of buying a boat. A boat was for me a symbol of freedom and lay back life. But it seems it is a lot more complicated than that.

I am Greek by the way and live in the US. So just to be fair, i have to make 2 comments a) nobody in any place likes to pay taxes. More in a place like Greece that the government robes your money and doesn't do anything for the citizens. But that doesn't change the fact that most people don't escape the taxes. only rich with friends in high chairs can escape them. b) It is ridiculous the argument we spend the money and move the economy. I mean come on. Yes people spent anywhere money but this argument gives grounds to illegal immigrants to say "If the don't give me green card i will leave and go somewhere else where they can appreciate my dollar" And guess what! They spent more - they actually have to pay clothing, rent, lawyer fees, transportation bla bla bla. On boats you can cook on it and live rent free. Come on.

It always come to a price for something. So 5 dollars to visit Borat's country is simply way to much (joking) and 100 dollars is a bargain to visit the French riviera for a night. But thats for a marina. If you are just cruising or on anchor WHY PAY???????

sorry i don't mean to offend anyone but i am just pissed with the lack of freedom nowadays and the fact that people count it on money units...oh i only have to pay 3 units of non freedom- boy thats cheap i got a bargain. Cheap or not when u pay for something that should be for free there is a problem
Firstly by international agreement countries DO own the sea around their coast upto 12 miles out and can legitimately treat it like theirs" land"

As to freedom , I argue that more of the world is open ( and opening ) to cruisers then ever before.

Boats get taxed when they get numerous, if you could convince all your friends to give up boats and we returned to 1970s numbers , we'd probably return to 1970 boat taxes too .


a boat is no more a method of freedom , then a 747 is. , nor is the lifestyle any like. " laid back" , sorry , it's times of relaxation interspersed by lots of work and some terrifying moments.

Dave
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Old 28-11-2013, 19:14   #147
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

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Is this what you do in the boat selling business? Sorry, could not resist as this does not sounds respectable ... hope not to cross your path while doing business ...

We are a Camper-Nicholson 58 Ketch. the '58' turns out to be nominal and used to describe the model for a family of boats varying from 57 to 60'. Measure your boat. I have also heard of people whacking off part of the bow roller system or other apparatus or shortening the reverse stern projections. If the length is loosely defined by the deck length then take advantage.

State docks on the Great Lakes are starting to charge by the slip, recognizing that a 40 foot vessel or my 60 footer both requere the same slip.
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Old 28-11-2013, 19:17   #148
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We are a Camper-Nicholson 58 Ketch. the '58' turns out to be an nominal and used to describe the model for a family of boats varying from 57 to 60'. Measure your boat. I have also heard of people whacking off part of the bow roller system or other apparatus or shortening the reverse stern projections. If the length is loosely drfined by the deck length then take advantage.

State docks on the Great Lakes are starting to charge by the slip, recognizing that a 40 foot vessel or my 60 footer both requere the same slip.
The French on the med coast charge by the square area of the boat !

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Old 28-11-2013, 20:01   #149
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

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Firstly by international agreement countries DO own the sea around their coast upto 12 miles out and can legitimately treat it like theirs" land"

As to freedom , I argue that more of the world is open ( and opening ) to cruisers then ever before.


Dave
Did they ask me? Because i don't agree
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Old 28-11-2013, 21:27   #150
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re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

And again i am not trying to be rude. But when public feeling and wills, are not considered that goes and tells you the power we have as voters. Anyways it is a sensitive subject to me, not the taxes of course....
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