Greek Tax coming?

[Barra]

From a non EU cruisers standpoint the old transit log tax (which this tax was meant to replace so hasnt been collected for a few years) was only a few hundred euros less than this tax for over 12m boats and more for under 12m so all in all there is basically no change for these cruisers after a couple of years tax holiday.


Its just the poms on the DEKPA that are whinging in the main

Like others i resented the abuse of the town quays by many who treated them as a free berth for months while they went home and if this tax drives them out i say good riddance.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by hoppy

If that is the case, they actually implement the tax and it has the effect of removing boats dumped at free town quays, then it is a fantastic tax that should be greatly appreciated by all cruisers with the exception of the tight arsed boat owners who ruin it for for cruisers who are on their boats wanting tie up at the town quay and spend money in the local bars

I grew to HATE the boat owners who would leave their boats permanently tied up at town quays when they are back in their home countries, causing me to have to anchor off.

It got to the point when sights did not make me sad but instead makes me laugh...

Lefkas town quay..
Attachment 159596

Attachment 159597

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I had already said I agree with that but they have changed the law (by marinas pressure) and now it will count only the time while cruising, not the time the boats are on ports or marinas.

So it would have no effect on the boats that are almost abandoned on ports.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Polux

I had already said I agree with that but they have changed the law (by marinas pressure) and now it will count only the time while cruising, not the time the boats are on ports or marinas.

Very interesting. Does that mean if I rent a berth for a full year, I don't have to pay? Do they track that someone is "at home" or went walkabout?

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Greece, Croatia, Montenegro, Italy, the US or any other country can do whatever their government wants to raise money via taxes, fees or whatever.... it’s their country.

If visitors don’t like it... tough. Go someplace else.

That’s pretty much my point. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Polux

No, there are many European countries that charge you a small amount for each day you will be on the country. It has some logic, you are using infrastructures that were built with the money of the citizens and you are asked to pay, even if symbolically, for their use.
Tourist Taxes

Normally it is about 1 to 3 Euros a day for person. On most countries you pay that with the hotel bill (included on the price).


The reason they gave is to get rid of all the boats that are half abandoned on ports, unfinished marinas or at buoys on sheltered coves. That is something that is understandable and that I applaud.

What makes no sense is that the original intention has been completely subverted by a law modification on behalf of Greek marinas: now the tax will be paid only when the boats are out of marinas, when they are cruising.

I suppose that the time that is passed on a buoy or at a port will not count too and that will result that Greece will continue to be full of derelict boats crowding the ports and buoys.

The other thing that does not make sense is that instead of charging a fixed amount for meter they created a scale it does not make any sense, as it is pointed out on the CA post:

https://www.theca.org.uk/news/greek_tax_update_nov_2017

It is a progressive scale with regular steps except between these two steps: 10 to 12 and 12 to 13 where the price raises 3x.

A boat with 12.01meter will pay 3 times more than a boat with 11.99 while a boat with 15m will only pay more 25% than a boat with 12.01 meter.

This has not any logic and that's the main point of disagreement with CA that has proposed a more gradual scale without success till now.

Governments with the power to tax have historically been unwilling to control spending leading to still higher taxes.

The point being that high taxes discourage participation. As Ken would say, “It’s that simple.”

[zboss]

We should fight new taxes regardless. Every new tax is slippage that bites into the cruising fund. For those of us with limited means but still have the dream it is simply unacceptable for others to tell us what we should or should not do. To tell us to give up on the dream. If 3 EUR per day isn’t expensive for you - great for you but don’t deprecate others experience.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

That’s pretty much my point. Thanks.



Governments with the power to tax have historically been unwilling to control spending leading to still higher taxes.

The point being that high taxes discourage participation. As Ken would say, “It’s that simple.”

I agree. Mismanagement is always the problem, taxes come second.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by Barra

Greece is awesome!

Having sold my boat this year (in greece) its the one country in the med i know im going to miss next year. The rest are "been there done that" really but greece gets in your blood.

A few hundred euros more to try and rain in the local boats tax dodge is a small price to pay and shouldnt dissuade you one bit IMHO!

If it's €3 a day it is over €1,000 a year unless you take the boat elsewhere for a large portion of that time.

Surely anyone coming to Greece (should the tax be implemented) just needs to factor it into their planning. If it proves too costly, then avoid Greece or stay for a shorter period.

Interestingly, someone in the thread mentioned that you are using infrastructures that were built with the money of the citizens. It is more the case that the infrastructure was paid for by citizens of western European countries, the very people that actually want to cruise there. You only have to go back far as the 80s and Greece wasn't even a developed nation (officially classed as 'developing') In most EU countries outside of the wealthiest, major/useful infrastructure is usually proceeded by a sign saying about it being paid for by some EU development fund other. Roads and airports in Spain, beautifully smooth tarmac in Slovenia, marinas in Greece etc..

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

We look forward to spending the next three summers in Greece and will gladly pay the cruising tax if it becomes necessary. Croatia presently has a similar tax and we find Croatia to be an absolute cruising paradise with so much to see at less than half the price of the the US. Nowhere in America could we anchor continuously in so many beautiful protected coves without being asked to pay or move on. Our total cost for all moorings and tax in Croatia during four months was less than $500 USD for a 16 meter boat. Our six month fresh water slip rental fee in Italy, just east of Venice is only 1000 euros in total (150 per month). Try to find that anywhere in the US, plus the quality of things to see and the marinas are unsurpassed.

The cruising fee is a bargain, and half liter beers are only 53 cents.

Ken, once again your comments on prices has piqued my interest in spending some time cruising in the Med. Sadly, I'll have a cuising fund in Brazilian currency, which probably won't come to more than about 1,300 euros a month

Do you think that budget is enough to cruise on in the Med? Obviously it depends on one's lifestyle, countries visted, boat size, staying in marinas or anchoring out etc. In my case, I'll be on a 35ft boat and I am somewhat frugal- althoughI like to sample local wines and food and would enjoy spending some of the time tied up on the town quay to explore the towns.

[mikedefieslife]

From June to September my monthly expenses were €1.128,1.157,1.018,1.278

That includes eating out a good 3 three times a week, drinking, and shopping (for non food stuffs, groceries (often about €200-300 a month) and loads of diesel.

But I had capital expenditure of €6.500 (new autopilot, dinghy etc..) over that period.

So yes it is do able, but you need a fund for then things break.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Interestingly, someone in the thread mentioned that you are using infrastructures that were built with the money of the citizens. It is more the case that the infrastructure was paid for by citizens of western European countries, the very people that actually want to cruise there.

Touche! And that is the thing.. someone on this thread has been loudly deprecating all the freeloaders who didn’t punch the clock long enough and sending people away (!) if they can’t afford Greece blah blah.. which is a pretty bold thing to do if you think about it, when you are a visitor and not even from the EU! How arrogant to sit in judgement of others and in a foreign land at that!

So yes, the economic realities of Europe are not the same as the US. Croatia might seem like a bargain compared to .. dunno.. the Caribbean or something, but would be exorbitant to the average Spanish cruiser. And yes, how do you think a German feels when asked to pay this tax, after knowing how much of his or her tax euros went down the greek blackhole? Etc, etc.

I am not an american but I would have thought that “rolling over” and just accepting any new tax the government thinks of and put up or go home is just about the most unamerican thing. Isn’t this actually one of the reasons for the american revolution?

It is the duty of citizens (in this case, of Greece and the larger European project) to question and hold their governments accountable and not just say yes to any form of taxation or laws that might go against one of the very reason d’être of the EU: The free unimpeded movement of goods and its citizens across the European community.

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

From June to September my monthly expenses were €1.128,1.157,1.018,1.278

That includes eating out a good 3 three times a week, drinking, and shopping (for non food stuffs, groceries (often about €200-300 a month) and loads of diesel.

But I had capital expenditure of €6.500 (new autopilot, dinghy etc..) over that period.

So yes it is do able, but you need a fund for then things break.

Thanks for the numbers Mike. Very encouraging indeed.

And yes, I have a fund for boat repairs (or even to replace the boat itself) and emergencies. I expect I'll also do some work along the way if I have internet and I get bored.

[dwedeking2]

I am not an american but I would have thought that “rolling over” and just accepting any new tax the government thinks of and put up or go home is just about the most unamerican thing. Isn’t this actually one of the reasons for the american revolution?

That American rarely exists anymore. The new model rolls over, plays dead and fetches the stick when told.

[NornaBiron]

Originally Posted by zboss

We should fight new taxes regardless. Every new tax is slippage that bites into the cruising fund. For those of us with limited means but still have the dream it is simply unacceptable for others to tell us what we should or should not do. To tell us to give up on the dream. If 3 EUR per day isn’t expensive for you - great for you but don’t deprecate others experience.

Well said

[Polux]

Originally Posted by GTom

Very interesting. Does that mean if I rent a berth for a full year, I don't have to pay? Do they track that someone is "at home" or went walkabout?

It seems so.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Polux

It seems so.

It will probably be managed by the Port Police when you get your DEPKA stamped at the start of your season and then you need to go back to them when you leave the boat back in the marina.

I'm a bit doubtful that it will go ahead next year as the Greeks have a bad track record at implementing new taxes