Greek Tax coming?

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by chuckr

Not sure when you last cruised there but we just finished 3 months there and IT IS NOT INEXPENSIVE compared to where we have been - the 24%vat on everything is a killer - glad we are in Turkey where we can live reasonably

I too find Greece more expensive than Spain, Italy, and even Malta for the lifestyle that I lead.

That being said. You can't beat a decent gyros for €2.50. Actually, I remember being Bulgaria in 2001 and they had fabulous gyros style kebabs for the equivalent of 20p each. Yum!

[K_V_B]

[QUOTE=chuckr;2520783
We are 40' so 12.1m [/QUOTE]



You’re probably just below 12m. Most 40-41 European production yachts have hull lengths of just below 12m, just because this is a popular cut of point for all kinds of rules.

For example, the Jeanneau 419 has a hull length of exactly 11.99, and isn’t the only one that stay so conveniently below 12m.

[South Bound]

I would have no problem paying more for marinas, dining out, or visiting touristic sights - it's fair to pay for what you use. What I do have a problem with are these tax type of charges that do not take into account the number of people on board, and whether they get anything at all in return for their money. But hey, I come from Scandinavia, where we have this "everyman's right" so maybe I'm just going to bang my head against the wall everywhere I go... Or keep working until I can afford paying taxes here and there - and unfortunately be too old to go cruising at all.

[daletournier]

I see it like this, countries can add any fees they like, I have a choice and don't have to go, ultimately the market (cruisers) will vote by going or not. The Seychelles is expensive, I don't have to be here, it's my choice, I just adapt, eat mainly on the boat instead of eating out, this mitigates some of the experience cost.
Obviously I would prefer no taxes and to be honest see these sort of taxes as short sighted, like Chuck, people will stop going and the real economy (mum&pop shops) miss out.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I see it like this, countries can add any fees they like, I have a choice and don't have to go, ultimately the market (cruisers) will vote by going or not. The Seychelles is expensive, I don't have to be here, it's my choice, I just adapt, eat mainly on the boat instead of eating out, this mitigates some of the experience cost.
Obviously I would prefer no taxes and to be honest see these sort of taxes as short sighted, like Chuck, people will stop going and the real economy (mum&pop shops) miss out.

In fairness to the Cruising Association, their point is that the leap from 33 - 96E when you go from 11.99m to 12.01m is too much, not that cruising there should be free. Thankfully the attitude of "If you can't afford hundreds of fees you shouldn't be allowed to cruise" is very rare among cruisers.

[Zai]

Maybe there should be a tax based on your net wealth.


I never mind paying my way. I also love cruising in Greece and will continue to do so, at least for a couple of years more.
Not only is it very reasonable, there is such a rich history and so many islands with out of the way places to see.
I also like the more crowded time, because I really enjoy meeting new people from all walks of life.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by chuckr

Just saw this

https://www.theca.org.uk/news/greek_tax_update_nov_2017

So if I read this correctly if you are 12m or under you pay about 3eu per day but if you are over 12m you pay 8eu per day

We are 40' so 12.1m - we have already sailed most of Greece thankfully - We will not be going back period.

Is Greece trying to kill what business they have started to develop - If Turkey can get it's act together they can get all the businsess back that they lost to Greece over the past couple of years.

Wow, thanks for the information! I look at it from a different aspect: I am before buying a boat. This means I'll stick to strictly <10m (as I planned before, but no wondering at any 10.x meters designs...) I know not everybody has the freedom here, especially those who already have their boats.

I agree the steep progressivity is unjust, moreover: a 10x more expensive 9.9m cat (which takes the same space as a ~15m mono) or motor boat (which pollutes the environment a many times more than a sailboat) pays the same as I would for a humble 31' mono...

[GTom]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

You’re probably just below 12m. Most 40-41 European production yachts have hull lengths of just below 12m, just because this is a popular cut of point for all kinds of rules.

For example, the Jeanneau 419 has a hull length of exactly 11.99, and isn’t the only one that stay so conveniently below 12m.

Is it hull length or LOA, including all kind of add-ons on the bow and transom?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I'm not going to let a 360 euro tax over a three month period (120 euros per month) keep us from cruising Greece. If it's a problem for some, maybe they need to re-evaluate their cruising/live style/finance choices.

That's less than the cost of one beer in a cafe in America per day. Maybe we should be looking at the high cost of American booze taxes instead, which make cruising in the US much higher than Greece.

Cruising Greece or Croatia is a bargain compared to America even with the cruising tax.

The problem is not regarding the boats that come to cruise 2 ou 3 months on Greece but regarding the ones that leave the boats there all year and more contribute to the Greece economy. What they want to charge is about as much as the boats are charged on a shipyard for passing 8 or 9 months on the hard.

That in fact doubles the costs of having a boat in Greece and will lead to a massive number of boats going to Turkey, as base port, where the prices on the hard are about the same.

Then if you stay on Turkey it is much cheaper to come 2 or 3 months to Greece than leaving the boat in Greece not mentioning that Turkey is a nice cruising ground.

Stupid law at those prices but Politicians are not normally very bright regarding laws. They are taking as measure the tax in Croatia except that Croatia is much more a charter paradise, there are much more private boats on Greece staying there all year than in Croatia due to that cost.

That is important for Greece economy since when the boats stay all year the do the maintenance there too.

Now it will happen the same regarding Greece and Turkey.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by ErikFinn

I'm not a lawyer but I can imagine a tax like that would be an infringement of the freedom of movement of EU citixens within the EU.
Then again, all Greece ever did in the EU was to suck all the money they possibly could and get away with it.

Not necessarily if it is for all cruising boats including Greek boats. Greek pleasure boats pay already a stupidly high tax that effectively prevent most Greek to have anything less than small boats.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Polux

That in fact doubles the costs of having a boat in Greece and will lead to a massive number of boats going to Turkey, as base port, where the prices on the hard are about the same.

Turkish marinas are not very cheap. It is very well possible that one can get the same deal with tax in a Greek marina as in Turkey without tax. Below 12m, I highly doubt that this =<356€ would be a game changer (any small item on the "other side" like airfare could turn things around). No doubling here.

I doubt big boat owners, let's say 15m+, would whine much about another grand or two of expenses either. These boats supposed to serve bigger families, groups, rich individuals that either pool the costs or can afford themselves. These boats pay 6k+€/year marina fees, no doubling here either.

The real issue are the boats that just passed the hard barrier at 12m. I suspect quite a price drop on 12.01m-13m boats in the Eastern Med...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by GTom

Turkish marinas are not very cheap. It is very well possible that one can get the same deal with tax in a Greek marina as in Turkey without tax. Below 12m, I highly doubt that this =<356€ would be a game changer (any small item on the "other side" like airfare could turn things around). No doubling here.
....

I am not talking about marinas but in having the boat on land for the winter. That is by far the most common way the boats are left in Greece where there are few marinas and the ports are not very reliable to leave a boat unattended.

I have friends that leave the boat on the hard on Turkey and the prices are similar if not cheaper than in Greece.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Polux

I have friends that leave the boat on the hard on Turkey and the prices are similar if not cheaper than in Greece.

There are still expensive places in Turkey and cheap places in Greece but generally speaking this is true. Since many cruisier have left Turkey for one or another reason, the prices in Turkey, be it in marina or on hard, have gone down whilst the prices in Greece, even in Montenegro went up because of increasing demand.

It's absolutely useless to argue about the new tax in Greece; as usual, it will never be implemented. The words tax and Greece don't go along well..
That's why Greece needed to be bailed out since the last 30 years or so. No worries..

Regarding the food, meat and alcholic beverages are much more expensive in Turkey than in Greece. The rest is the same if not cheaper. The technical services are much better and being outside Schengen, Turkey is a good shelter for non EU cruisiers to get away from stupid 90 days restriction.

Cheers

Yeloya

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Polux

I am not talking about marinas but in having the boat on land for the winter. That is by far the most common way the boats are left in Greece where there are few marinas and the ports are not very reliable to leave a boat unattended.

I have friends that leave the boat on the hard on Turkey and the prices are similar if not cheaper than in Greece.

I highly doubt that. Over the past 6 years I've probably gotten a quote for haul and store from 10 Turkish marinas and 15 Greek ones. Yeloya's marina was the least expensive I found in Turkey and it was still 8000 euro vs 4500 euro at Messolonghi. I probably still have most of the quotes but have already posted them here several times in the past.

Also, I doubt there is going to be any type of "migration" from Greece to Turkey due to this tax. In fact, the migration has been by far going the opposite direction.

[chuckr]

[QUOTE=Palarran;2521347]This year. And I have to totally disagree with you Chuck. You can stay at a village quay for free half the time and for around 20 euro the other half. Many of the quays now have power, which is extra, like 5 euro. A full lunch can be from 3 to 8 euro and dinner from 8 to 12. That is about 50% less than where we went in Malta (150 euro per night) Licata 100 euro, and on and on all the way to the Canaries.



Please do not try and lecture me on the cost in Greece - we just spent 90 days sailing the Greek islands doing over 1300 miles and over 30 ports of call - I know exactly what it costs -
we have also sailed Tunisia, Italy, Spain, Croatia, Montenegro, Turkey, Georgia, Russia, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria - we think we know what we are talking about - Greece is expensive and now more expensive