Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

[weavis]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

I guess I just get lucky then..Maybe I should become a gambler, lord knows if I am as good at that as i have been at informing myself about what is going on in the world for the past 35 years id be rich..You seem to be more worried about "muck slinging" than the Greeks etc. are about their next generations lives..If it makes you feel good act like I never said anything,to bad reality bites..

I dont understand your logic or your rhetoric. You dont know that you dont know. Even if you did know, you dont get a say in how to fix it. That is reality. So far all Ive seen is loud noises and assumptions and a defined opinion of how it should be.

History shows that how it should be is always trumped by self interest and individuals. That mr tropicalscape is reality.

Until the dust settles and the people who's opinions count make their deals for their own reasons, we as cruisers carry on and wait for the new rules and circumstances.

So the real answer to whether the NO vote has an impact on cruisers, is that the situation has not been settled yet and we simply do not know.

Remember that America went the route of "spending its way out of debt". There is nothing to say about the financial geniuses at work over there.

Perhaps if we left Greece to sort its own problems they might do a better job-or not. Depends what the end game is.

However you getting your knickers in a knot doesnt change one thing.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by bill352

Excellent speech. But did you see the look on Tsipras's face when Verhofstadt talked about ending privilege? Ain't gonna happen.

Yeah, it just goes to show that he is probably just as bad as every other Greek PM.

I think the ending privilege should be part of the bailout conditions especially if they ever write off some of the debt.

I'm disappointed that the speech was not on the front page of the BBC.

I find it hard to feel sorry for Greece about the tough conditions when they don't tackle privilege


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[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

I agree. Its funny how many plumbers are making a lot more than the average university grad.

It's not funny, it's supply and demand. That is also a reason why social workers are paid just above the min. wage as they are a dime a dozen and a good plumber or auto/marine mechanic charges as much as $100/hr+ as they are very few and far in between.

When education is strategically matched to fill a demand in society it can be a boon to the economy. When it is artificially stifled, whether by artificially high costs or in the case of MDs artificially limited output of graduates and residents, it creates all sort of problems. I am not saying that everyone should get a free Harvard level education, not at all. But if a 17-18 year old kid has the aptitude to become a tradesperson he/she should get that education regardless of his family's financial education and not be saddled with debts as long as he put in an honest effort (IMO a key to any education provided for free). Same with someone showing an ability to become a nurse, a paralegal or whatever. Again this is just like any other public resource - it is best used when spread out to as many citizens as possible and not concentrated in the hands of the financially lucky few. Just as we try to do with the roads, the police and fire, defense and lately with medicine (a very rough work in progress hampered by entrenched special interests and trade mafias).

But back to Greece. What I find appauling is that there are too many people trying to push their own vision of a country down another country's throat. You don't like Greeks retiring at 50? Don't like them sitting in cafes in the middle of the day instead of slaving away for min. wages? Don't like their high rate of participation in under the table grey economy? Well you knew that upfront when they knocked on eurozone's door (or were dragged in). The Greeks did not hide these deeply entrenched cultural attributes. So the lending which was done was not Greeks lying about themselves it were the bankers lying to their shareholders, the IMF and WB officials lying to the general public and other gov'ts, etc. Just like lending a junkie $100 note and then being surprised that it went toward his habit and not toward his accumulated debt. Or the bankers thought that the Greeks, after 2,000 years of Mediterranean culture, this time finally they will really work as much as the Germans?

[sailorboy1]

I think I've crossed over to the joke thread

[weavis]

OK.

From 1996 until the start of the modern crisis, the EU average growth in economy was 2.4%.

Greece was 3.9%. They cut expenditures and increased taxes. There was even a primary surplus of tax income exceeding expenditures - excluding interest payments.

It was an impressive fiscal position to be in and would have continued if the recession/depression had been less severe. It was a 25% decline in GDP and coincidentally a 25% unemployment rate.

This occurred because Greece did what was demanded of them, and not because of a failure to comply. It is the predictable and predicted response to the heavy austerity imposed and instigated.

This information is out there for all to see. Its convenient to ignore and blame the Greek nation for greed and laziness and not being like the Germans.

Greece is Greece and live the way Greeks live. They also worked really hard to build the country up-the figures prove it.

Also do not forget that Germany received unconditional aid from the USA and debt relief in the Marshall Plan, and yet will not offer debt relief to Greece.

Greece can and will overcome this issue. The road will be paved with stones and things will be rocky for a while. Starting again is never easy.

Nice people the Greeks.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by hoppy

I spoke to two chandeliers before the vote, both bringing up the topic. One said he was going to vote No and the other disagreed with what was happening in the government in a way that suggest he would vote Yes, but said he will not bother voting.

So from your extensive survey:
- 50% NO
- 50% Undecided
- 0% YES

But somehow that will translate to a reverse of an overwhelming NO vote.

I get your point that there is some apathy and I'll give you the vote might change by a few percentage points if everyone was forced to vote but you are making a HUGE presumption that virtually everyone who didn't vote would vote YES.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Sometimes I think we need to compare Greece to Haiti or Somalia in order to appreciate that it isn't really in "Shambles". I doubt anyone has gone without their cafe freido yet. Here, again, you would never know there was a problem. Scaremongering from the media for sure.

There's a difference between being in shambles and being non-existent.

A person in a modern western nation who has lost thier job, had the home and car reposessed and no prospects for improvement...is still better off than the guy in Somolia but I doubt they are going kick back and laugh about thier situation.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by weavis

I dont understand your logic or your rhetoric. You dont know that you dont know. Even if you did know, you dont get a say in how to fix it. That is reality. So far all Ive seen is loud noises and assumptions and a defined opinion of how it should be.

History shows that how it should be is always trumped by self interest and individuals. That mr tropicalscape is reality.

Until the dust settles and the people who's opinions count make their deals for their own reasons, we as cruisers carry on and wait for the new rules and circumstances.

So the real answer to whether the NO vote has an impact on cruisers, is that the situation has not been settled yet and we simply do not know.

Remember that America went the route of "spending its way out of debt". There is nothing to say about the financial geniuses at work over there.

Perhaps if we left Greece to sort its own problems they might do a better job-or not. Depends what the end game is.

However you getting your knickers in a knot doesnt change one thing.

The Greeks are nice people..maybe you should take a page from their play book..You dont like what I say but push right ahead to make sure you can convince some that what you have to say is correct..I think you have entered the conversation ( on world agenda as a whole) late in the day and are working as hard as you can to catch up ! That seems to be "reality" other wise you would let me make my statements as you make yours without getting your "panties in a wad"! By the way I do know what I know and I have a good idea what you dont know ..Relax let me be me and I will let you be you..Its called equlity,something any good communist can understand or at least pay lip service to..

[weavis]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

The Greeks are nice people..maybe you should take a page from their play book..You dont like what I say but push right ahead to make sure you can convince some that what you have to say is correct..I think you have entered the conversation ( on world agenda as a whole) late in the day and are working as hard as you can to catch up ! That seems to be "reality" other wise you would let me make my statements as you make yours without getting your "panties in a wad"! By the way I do know what I know and I have a good idea what you dont know ..Relax let me be me and I will let you be you..Its called equlity,something any good communist can understand or at least pay lip service to..

Im absolutely in agreement with you. You do know what you know.

I just wish you would talk about what you do know more.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by weavis

Im absolutely in agreement with you. You do know what you know.

I just wish you would talk about what you do know more.

Ok I will do that,and you continue to feel free to talk about what ever you want to talk about, you have my permission...

[indi4700]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Yeah, it just goes to show that he is probably just as bad as every other Greek PM.

I think the ending privilege should be part of the bailout conditions especially if they ever write off some of the debt.

I'm disappointed that the speech was not on the front page of the BBC.

I find it hard to feel sorry for Greece about the tough conditions when they don't tackle privilege


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

I think none of you people cared to reasearch who that guy is talking about corruption. His speech was such an oxymoron... He is corrupt to the bone. (http://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=62514) As for the privileges of the shipping sector is a very complex story that extends beyond Greece.
Please reaserch a bit about luxleaks before pointing fingers about corruption and then i invite everyone to a discussion for a european solution to what is a European problem 😃


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[hoppy]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

So from your extensive survey:
- 50% NO
- 50% Undecided
- 0% YES

But somehow that will translate to a reverse of an overwhelming NO vote.

I get your point that there is some apathy and I'll give you the vote might change by a few percentage points if everyone was forced to vote but you are making a HUGE presumption that virtually everyone who didn't vote would vote YES.

No, the polls would have come out 50/50 but the election 100/0

I never presumed everyone who did not vote would have voted yes. I'm just saying apathy among Yes supporters is why there was such a big difference between all of the polls and the actual result. If both sides were equally motivated to vote, then the results may have more closely reflected what the polls were saying.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by hoppy

OK, stop the US discussions. We know you love hearing the sounds of your own voice but take it elsewhere

EVERYONE in Europe and especially Greece should listen to this speech by the former Belgium PM, Guy Verhofstadt.

'End privilege of ship owners, military and church' - Guy Verhofstadt - BBC News

Seems like the former prime minister of Belgum has his "knickers in a wad" also..of course he could be wrong also.. nah,from the applause he is getting he is right on the money.. To bad mr.weavis thinks he is correct and I and the majority of the folks at that meeting are wrong...

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by indi4700

I think none of you people cared to reasearch who that guy is talking about corruption. His speech was such an oxymoron... He is corrupt to the bone. (Money on the side, and lots of it for Guy Verhofstadt) As for the privileges of the shipping sector is a very complex story that extends beyond Greece.
Please reaserch a bit about luxleaks before pointing fingers about corruption and then i invite everyone to a discussion for a european solution to what is a European problem 😃


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Just because he might be corrupt (don't know, don't care) but it doesn't make his point less valid.

I think the way the EU is run is just a joke, a huge waste of tax payers money in many cases. Things like the way the EU parliament moves to Strasbourg for a couple of days a month The ridiculous farming subsidies and all the the other non-sense that's going on.

But the EU is not requesting a bail out, Greece is.

[indi4700]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Just because he might be corrupt (don't know, don't care) but it doesn't make his point less valid.

I think the way the EU is run is just a joke, a huge waste of tax payers money in many cases. Things like the way the EU parliament moves to Strasbourg for a couple of days a month The ridiculous farming subsidies and all the the other non-sense that's going on.

But the EU is not requesting a bail out, Greece is.

Well you should care if you want to have a valid opinion. It goes without saying it makes his point invalid as it has no foundation. He is not there in an academic context but in a political.

I totally agree with you on the resource waste eu. As for the bailout Greece is asking; for the first time it says please no more money unless we make the debt sustainable.

Now if we are to talk about the mistakes of the current goverment it's a different story but corruption wise and stiking wealthy i think they are not the ones to blame.

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