Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

[Jason Flare]

Teach a man to fish and he will still vote for the man who gave him a free fish.

[dlymn]

Senormechanico, how have you come to the knowledge that the Greeks are "people who won't work to support themselves"? Do you live in Greece and have seen the overwhelming majority of people behaving this way or have you formed your opinions from the right wing media that seem to pervade many nations such as America. Maybe your belief that all greeks are on vacation has been partly formed by the fact that so many people especially from the EU holiday in Greece because it's so cheap there.

When you see photographs of poor people sitting in the gutter doing nothing do you accuse them of "being on vacation" or do you see them as victims of capitalism which exploit physical and human resources and then walks away from what's left?

What are you doing to support those people in your country who are in need let alone accepting that every human being has a duty to help all those who are victims of "the system"? Are you always going to leave it to the Megarich such as Bill Gates to show a humanitarian conscience and give alms to those who are most in need?

Why don't you spend some time in Greece and get to know the country? Go sailing there. You might find that the Greeks are a lot like you and me. They work hard and are humble in their conduct and exploits. The money you spend there will help to boost the economy and you might actually enjoy spending it.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by lordgeoff

Just a quick one. What is the latest clearing in procedure at Corfu. We are non EU boat Non EU crew arriving from Albania? Do you still need to visit Port Police?

The Cruising Association (CA) keeps up to date with all the twists and turns of maritime procedures in Greece, and publishes the current state of affairs on its publicly accessible pages.

See Greek Cruising Tax and other regulations | CA for the current situation, both for EU registered boats, and non-EU boats.

Note that currently Greece is breaking EU customs zone regulations by issuing transit logs to non-EU boats which lapse after 180 days. Overstay and risk a fine . . .

PS - if you discover that a longer stay is permitted when you enter, please let the CA know!

JimB

[Polux]

Originally Posted by dlymn

...
I'm sure that the capitalists who lobbied the right wing governments to manipulate the system would be proud to call themselves ultra right wing.

When you use the word 'communist', you want me to associate this government with something that I think you despise and that you assume that everyone else does. It's a slur word. It's true that the 'communists' did some terrible things in Greece many years ago but I certainly would not associate that history with what is happening at the moment.

Do you agree:
that the EU should purge itself of all poor performing countries?
that all foreign aid should be stopped?
that social welfare is an unnecessary drain on the economy?
that people who make money by any means possible deserve to keep it for themselves?

These are what I call ultra-right wing views and oddly enough are probably the views of the corrupt people who brought Greece to its knees in the first place.

I don't despise Communists. I despise Stalinists and all that consider that in politics the ends justify the means. I have nothing against democrat communists and I have comunist friends (old guys mostly) even if I had a lot more friends that were communists in their youth .

I just believe that the system does not work, that the dialectic materialism is rubbish and contrary to scientific evidence regarding the social nature of men.

In many ways the extreme left has many similarities with the extreme right mainly in its refuse of democracy and in considering that the ends justify the means.

Regarding those points you ask me if I agree they seem all rubbish to me.

The only future of the European countries lies on being a federation and solidarity is needed. Politically almost all European governments belong to what we call the centre (centre right, centre left). Social solidarity is a well established value in Europe.

Curiously even the centre right is viewed by the US as left but that is another matter..

That has nothing to do with the Greece situation. Greece has been extensively helped by EC countries, separated and as a whole, it has to do with lack of Greece political responsibility and the will to take the measures needed to correct the economic Greek situation that is in its essence very simple: they are spending a lot more then what they produce and that for many years and are living above their means.

To correct this any responsible government, being it from the center left or center right will have to take very similar measures. It is more a technical problem than a political one, if the government is a responsible one.

I found very funny that Varoufakis the ex-star Economy Minister of the Greek leftist government having voted favourably the harsh measures imposed by the EC for a new bailout justified the vote saying that he agrees with them, that they are necessary, that he had already have proposed them, while as a representative of the Greek government was incapable to reach an apparently much more soft and more beneficial agreement with the EC, with less stringent measures.

He had supported the NO on the referendum to less radical measures than the ones he says now he agrees with

Have a look:

Varoufakis: ?Why I Voted ?YES? Tonight?

As you see the measures purposed by EC are not very different then the ones Varoufakis would have taken if he had the political courage to do what was needed instead of chose to be tied by a load of crap impossible political promises made on the electoral campaign to get Syriza to power.

Left or right if they act responsively the needed measures to solve the problem will not be very different. The previous government was on the right direction and since Syriza come to power all economic indicators are worse than before and increasingly going more and more negative.

[dlymn]

The economic situation in Greece seems to be very difficult. Tsipras inherited a real mess. I reckon the last election was about getting rid of a bad government and hoping the new government could perform miracles. It can't.
I think that the saying " a week is a long time in politics" is very true in the lobbying for a good deal from the Greek creditors. Tsipras et al might say one thing today and another tomorrow in order to gain leverage over the banks and other countries; that's fairly typical of politics. I wouldn't condemn a government because of this sort of jostling for position.

Greece won't solve its problems by making savings; the average wage is 17000 euros pa, half of most other EU countries. The average taxpayer is already suffering. They will only get out of this mess by defaulting or by earning revenue. Some ways to do this are: sell off assets, develop agriculture and horticulture more, mining, tourism, selling services such as education, leasing.

Obama has already said that Greece should be supported to stay in the EU. He could decide to put a huge military and refugee processing base in Greece. This would service all of the troubled areas in the east side of the Med. A couple of billion a year or even much more than that injected into the economy could help. China recognises that Greece is a gateway to the EU and has already started out by leasing Piraeus. Putin can also see an advantage in supporting Greece.

I'm helping (!!!) by spending thousands each year flogging my sails. More sailors could come to Greece to spend and enjoy. It has some of the best Cruising grounds in the world. Who knows, it might start a sailor led recovery.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by dlymn

The economic situation in Greece seems to be very difficult. Tsipras inherited a real mess. Ie in supporting Greece.

Actually what Tsirpas inherited was an economy that had started to recover. He then messed it all up...


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[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Actually what Tsirpas inherited was an economy that had started to recover. He then messed it all up...

You can see it clearly here:



The previous government had done a good job, they were growing since 2012 and were already positive with some ups and downs...and then comes Tsipras and Greece went sharply down again.

On democracy when some party comes with lies proposing miracles and finishing with austerity people tend to think : "What the hell, let's give them a chance, maybe they are right" but forget that if they are wrong things only will be worse and heavier austerity and more sacrifices will follow. Quite sad.

I hope the Greeks have learned by now not to believe on the ones that propose miracles.

[dlymn]

Polux
I don't think that many people would look at that graph and then condemn the current government. Your graph actually shows that GDP was in growth for some of the time. I think that the real culprit here is the fact that the government has been so worried by the pressure placed on them, by trying to negotiate an almost impossible situation and by a pack of right wing conservatives who will take any opportunity to damn the left that they are finding it difficult to foster growth. I'm surprised this government has survived as well as they did. For the last seven years the government lied about their economic situation, borrowed well above their capacity to repay, and when their corrupt behaviour was revealed, were kicked out of power. The electorate knows that they voted out a bad government and that anyone who took the reins would have a herculean task to recover.

Tsipras hasn't had time to rebuild the economy; some people are threatened by socialism and will do anything they can to destroy any socialist movement.
Why, because a conservative always ask "what's in it fo me?" and socialists ask " what's in it for all of us" This attacks the self centred, greedy, money hungry people who would stand and spit on those less fortunate lying in the gutter

[Polux]

Originally Posted by dlymn

Polux
I don't think that many people would look at that graph and then condemn the current government. Your graph actually shows that GDP was in growth for some of the time. I think that the real culprit here is the fact that the government has been so worried by the pressure placed on them, by trying to negotiate an almost impossible situation and by a pack of right wing conservatives who will take any opportunity to damn the left that they are finding it difficult to foster growth. I'm surprised this government has survived as well as they did. For the last seven years the government lied about their economic situation, borrowed well above their capacity to repay, and when their corrupt behaviour was revealed, were kicked out of power. The electorate knows that they voted out a bad government and that anyone who took the reins would have a herculean task to recover.

Tsipras hasn't had time to rebuild the economy; some people are threatened by socialism and will do anything they can to destroy any socialist movement.
Why, because a conservative always ask "what's in it fo me?" and socialists ask " what's in it for all of us" This attacks the self centred, greedy, money hungry people who would stand and spit on those less fortunate lying in the gutter

Get real!!!

when a country is on the verge of bankruptcy right or left it makes no much difference. Competence in dealing with Economy issues, seriousness and the balls to take the necessary unpopular needed measures is what counts.

When a country wastes far more than what produces and nobody is willing to give away more money for them to continue to live above their means on borrowed money there are only one way and that is to spend less money.

A typically European state like Greece expends most of his money on public workers pay, wealth system, pensions, public education and welfare.All this accounts probably 95% of public spending and there is where cuts have to be made. A smaller state is an absolute necessity.

That or increases substantially taxes to pay that fat state but that does not work anymore when taxes have been increasing for years.People has just no more money to pay higher taxes and that only leads to unemployment and more spending in welfare.

So what had Tsipras has done has first measure, according with its demagogic electoral promises? :

He reinstated the public workers that had been dispensed by the previous government, increased social welfare and maintained all the state as it was. As promised no more cuts. He did not increased taxes also.

That put people happy, at least for some months till the money run out.
How the well you think Tsipras was dealing with the situation?

Easy he was expecting Germany and European countries to forget about the money that they have been borrowing for years, to keep more money coming to allow the country to continue to live about their means and for that he blackmailed EC with going out of the Euro (that would have a negative impact on all European economy).

But After two bail outs and a haircut on the borrowed money European countries had too much of it and could not accept that anymore even that would cost dearly in Euro problems.

What would they say to countries like Ireland or Portugal that had also been bailed out and are now living on their own having its citizens and governments made all the cuts in spending to make them sustainable again? What would they say to the citizens of those countries that had suffered (and are suffering) all austerity that was needed if others could keep their status leaving on borrowed money forever?

What would they say to some small Northern countries that have been making huge cuts and huge sacrifices not to go to a bankruptcy situation (needing then a bailout)?

What would say IMF, that has spending on Greece the money that comes from all countries on earth for dealing with economic emergencies, to the much poorer countries that see their money wasted on Greece so they can continue living about their means?

Is Tsipras serious? I don't think so neither their European partners that demanded from Greece extra insurances for more borrowed money because they have not any trust in Tsipras.

[hoppy]

Syriza's only plan was to "play chicken" with its creditors and hope that the costs to Germany and other creditors of Greece defaulting and leaving the Euro far out weighed the costs of giving Greece's debts a haircut.

This is what they call in Economics "game theory".

Greece blinked first with their desperate referendum call.

I believe an honest right leaning government would be best at dragging Greece out of this situation, because for the left, privatisations, benefit cuts and so on are opposite to leftist principles. As you see now, Tsipras is realistic and has accepted his only choice is to follow the creditors plans but his party is divided and may need the support of the opposition.

It's a shame for Greece that there seems to be no one in politics who can be trusted.


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