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Old 12-07-2015, 09:33   #136
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Don't forget that in the case of post war Germany "unconditional" meant that it was the Germans that didn't get to impose any conditions...

And stop always pointing at Germany. Except for France and Cyprus every single EU country is of the opinion that Greece should first show it can really reform before more money comes. At the moment the biggest blockage isn't coming from Germany. It's Finland. There's even talk of Finland leaving the Euro if Greece doesn't. I could see Germany follow them...
In the Nordic countries (you know, these shining beacons of anti capitalism...) the public opinion is 3/4 against the Greeks.

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The truth will come out in due course. History always reveals what was hidden. This is not the place to argue politics. This is the place to watch and observe a behind the scenes game being played under the guise of something else.

There are deeper motivations for this scenario occurring. Whatever happens Greece will survive with Europe or without it. Paradoxically, the vote in Greece by the populace showed that the EU does not like a democratic vote, and that in the face of a democratic vote, the Government of Greece went against the reason for the vote in the first place.

Ultimately, governments make the rules and the decision and the citizens have to work withing those constraints. Not a lot anyone can do about it without civil war, and then it starts again.

There is something in the picture that does not add up. It could be as simple as bringing other EU countries into line, or as complex as ..............

Who knows.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:43   #137
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
The truth will come out in due course. History always reveals what was hidden. This is not the place to argue politics. This is the place to watch and observe a behind the scenes game being played under the guise of something else.

There are deeper motivations for this scenario occurring. Whatever happens Greece will survive with Europe or without it. Paradoxically, the vote in Greece by the populace showed that the EU does not like a democratic vote, and that in the face of a democratic vote, the Government of Greece went against the reason for the vote in the first place.

Ultimately, governments make the rules and the decision and the citizens have to work withing those constraints. Not a lot anyone can do about it without civil war, and then it starts again.

There is something in the picture that does not add up. It could be as simple as bringing other EU countries into line, or as complex as ..............

Who knows.
"under the guise of something else" You know what that "something else" is..Dont you?
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:52   #138
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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Also do not forget that Germany received unconditional aid from the USA and debt relief in the Marshall Plan, and yet will not offer debt relief to Greece.
And when the US goes bust owing Germany billions, perhaps then they will be generous.

The big problem is trust. No one trusts the Greeks to do as promised.

One condition being considered is that they require Greece to implement new laws by Wednesday. This requirement is clearly a trust issue. I though wonder how many EU countries will believe even that is enough. After all, the new cruising tax has been law for 18 months or something and what happened to that.

Greece perhaps needs a Marshall plan, but like with Germany between 1945 & 1949, there needs to be outsiders running the country. That's never going to be accepted by Greeks and a generous non-conditional bailout and debt relief is never going to be accepted by the rest of Europe.

I like the comments about a temporary 5 year exit from the Euro. Clearly it is said that way to make it seem less scary. Anyone willing to bet that after 5 years they would return?
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:52   #139
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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"under the guise of something else" You know what that "something else" is..Dont you?
I have no idea. It just never is what everyone wants us to think it is.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:55   #140
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post



Paradoxically, the vote in Greece by the populace showed that the EU does not like a democratic vote, and that in the face of a democratic vote, the Government of Greece went against the reason for the vote in the first place.

I shall remember that if I ever owe you money all I have to do is democratically vote that I should not have to repay it.


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Old 12-07-2015, 09:56   #141
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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There are deeper motivations for this scenario occurring. Whatever happens Greece will survive with Europe or without it. Paradoxically, the vote in Greece by the populace showed that the EU does not like a democratic vote, and that in the face of a democratic vote, the Government of Greece went against the reason for the vote in the first place.
The "democratic vote" was a farce before it happened and even more so after it happened. It was Tsipras's way of avoiding responsibility.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:57   #142
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
I shall remember that if I ever owe you money all I have to do is democratically vote that I should not have to repay it.


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I would never have lent you money in the first place.
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:04   #143
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
The "democratic vote" was a farce before it happened and even more so after it happened. It was Tsipras's way of avoiding responsibility.
Is that not the point? Whatever reason is given for an action, it is not the real one?

I have no idea what the reason for the vote was, but I do know it was not for the government following the wishes of the people...... but it sure looked like it..

LOL....... i really dont have faith in politicians or bankers in any way shape or form. On either side....

I just hope that 'people' dont get hurt too much in the games. Yet we always do.
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:12   #144
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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Is that not the point? Whatever reason is given for an action, it is not the real one?

I have no idea what the reason for the vote was, but I do know it was not for the government following the wishes of the people...... but it sure looked like it..

LOL....... i really dont have faith in politicians or bankers in any way shape or form. On either side....

I just hope that 'people' dont get hurt too much in the games. Yet we always do.
The only reason you don't have faith in bankers is because you were born with some common sense.
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:15   #145
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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The only reason you don't have faith in bankers is because you were born with some common sense.
Hehe haha thats funny..
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:29   #146
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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And you know what? I believe that's far too miserly. All education should be free. Or at least should not depend on the students' or their parents' ability to pay for one. Just like we did with the roads, police and fire, defense, etc. I'd much rather pay for someone's education than for their welfare or prison upkeep. And that's really the only choice we have.
Free education, preschool through grad school, is a proven way to institutionalize innovation nation wide.

Unfortunately most developed nations seem to think education should be a profit center. Stupid thinking IMHO.

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Old 12-07-2015, 13:49   #147
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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I would never have lent you money in the first place.

I would never have needed money. The Greeks however...


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Old 12-07-2015, 14:08   #148
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

Getting off the boat, Greek coffee, a shot of Brandy and Baklava.

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Old 12-07-2015, 15:41   #149
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Don't forget that in the case of post war Germany "unconditional" meant that it was the Germans that didn't get to impose any conditions...

And stop always pointing at Germany. Except for France and Cyprus every single EU country is of the opinion that Greece should first show it can really reform before more money comes. At the moment the biggest blockage isn't coming from Germany. It's Finland. There's even talk of Finland leaving the Euro if Greece doesn't. I could see Germany follow them...
In the Nordic countries (you know, these shining beacons of anti capitalism...) the public opinion is 3/4 against the Greeks.


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Portugal and Ireland are not very satisfied also. They had one bail out from EC and are now out of it, on the market and paying their debts in a sustainable way. For doing this big reforms were made (some imposed) and austerity had been hard on all levels of society on the past years and still is.

Greeks had a first bail out that did not manage to solve the problem, a haircut on debts, a second bail out, as unsuccessful as the first and now they want a third and again another haircut on debts. How do you think politicians in Portugal and Ireland will explain to their citizens that for them it was needed big austerity, big reforms, less civil servants, less state, a higher retirement age, lowering of pensions and more taxes will the Greeks sort out the problem not implementing reforms and living of successive bail outs and cuts on debts to creditors?
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Old 12-07-2015, 16:23   #150
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Re: Greece votes "NO" - impact on cruisers

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Portugal and Ireland are not very satisfied also. They had one bail out from EC and are now out of it, on the market and paying their debts in a sustainable way. For doing this big reforms were made (some imposed) and austerity had been hard on all levels of society on the past years and still is.

Greeks had a first bail out that did not manage to solve the problem, a haircut on debts, a second bail out, as unsuccessful as the first and now they want a third and again another haircut on debts. How do you think politicians in Portugal and Ireland will explain to their citizens that for them it was needed big austerity, big reforms, less civil servants, less state, a higher retirement age, lowering of pensions and more taxes will the Greeks sort out the problem not implementing reforms and living of successive bail outs and cuts on debts to creditors?
Remind me again of the benefits of being in the EU?

Loaned money and then in a debt cycle forever.

Lower pensions-does not change
Higher retirement age-does not change
Increasing Vat (does not go down)
More taxes-more taxes
Centralised offshore governance
Austerity That continues because if it does not, then the next bills cannot be met.

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