Charter Vacation - Italy vs Greece vs Croatia - Pros and Cons ?

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by pjosip

I have impression that you find pricing as number one condition when judging about the destination.

No, I do not think so.
First for all I would never advise anybody to charter a cheap boat.
It is simple - low price = not well maintained boat.

But on the other hand there are a lot of places just overpriced food, fuel, mooring fees etc.), sure You know some yourself.

There are some places when You can choose to spend more or less by adjusting Your plan accorddingly, and there are places where You have not much choice or even no choice at all.

And for some people the price guide is important, so You can not give honest advice without mentioning prices

[pjosip]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

But on the other hand there are a lot of places just overpriced food, fuel, mooring fees etc.), sure You know some yourself.

Well, let me tell you another side of the story.

I know the guy who lived on the boat for 3 years with no money, whatsoever.

He was fishing and that's how he lived. During summer time he would sell the fish he caught to restaurants and that's how he made some money to buy fuel.

He said he avoided commercial places and had no problems.


You should know that pricing comes from demand. Someone mentioned that Croatia has become rather popular.

Let's be honest here, you can't find a boat to rent in high season due to demand. Would you keep your prices low and attract more people to already overflooded coast?

I don't think so.

The most important thing is that you can go without paying a single cent. Just avoid commercial places and if you happen to stumble of someone who wants to charge you, you ask him to show his authorisation and when he does you explain that you are a sailing enthusiast with no money and move to another place.

Off course, this tactic will hardly work if you have fancy boat with bunch of people onboard.

[Roaring Girl]

Slightly lost track of OP, I'm afraid. Can't comment east of Italy but have spent last two or three years in S France/W Italy and agree that we have found all the isalnds from Elba to Sicily to have a great deal to recommend them. In a week then, as goboatingnow, says look at Corsica/Sardinia:

great food - Corsica not the best of French but much better than it was. Sardinia some amazing food. (Elba also fab for food if you go that way)

Walking etc: Wonderful mountains if you do get stuck by weather (mistrals in spring). Corisca and Sardinia have lots of neolothic and other prehistoric remains with a great museum in Cagliari if you go that far south

Anchoring - in season they do get crowded, but try even in June and you'll find a lot of space. Also september.

Sailing - a good cruising ground to do short sails if you so fancy or longer ones if the forecast if helpful and you have the time. If you go to the Italian mainland you will find much less sailing choice than the islands.

HTH

[Ingeborg i mevi]

We have yet to experience Italy by yacht, but we have sailed in Greece several times, and enjoyed two fantastic weeks in Croatia last year. We're going back to Greece twice this year, and then again in 2012, but will definitely visit Croatia again. Two different experiences, both highly enjoyable in their own right.

In 2013 we'll sail Ingeborg back to Norway, and hope to discover some of the italian coastline as well, in addition to the rest of the Med.

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by pjosip

You should know that pricing comes from demand. Someone mentioned that Croatia has become rather popular.

Let's be honest here, you can't find a boat to rent in high season due to demand. Would you keep your prices low and attract more people to already overflooded coast?

I don't think so.

Dear pjosip,

my remarks were general - You are obviously counting all of them as hostile comments regarding Croatia. It is simply not true.
Let me put it this way - there are a lot of people happily going for a vacation on St. Barth. But it is very expensive place - because of demand. So it is the right place only for rich people.
When someone will ask me if it is better to go to St. Barth or to St. Lucia i will answe that both places are beautiful, St. Barth is somewhat more safe place to be, but it is much more expensive than St. Lucia.
I do not think it would be unfair. I do not regard asking somebody how much money he has or wish to spendas appropriate, so I'm just pointing the price differences.

I like Croatia very much - You probably know it is quite popular tourist destination in Poland. I also chartered there. It was nice time - really.
I will probably be back there by my boat - as soon as Croatia will be EU member. Hope it is matter of months rather, than years.

I do also understand that Croatia is not very big country and the Croatian cruising ground is much more limited than - for example Greek one.
With much of popularity it means that demand compared to resources is huge, so the level of the prices is (in my personal opinion) by no mean unreasonable. But this my opinion does not matter much. As You know well the balance between demand and supply is achieved by part of potential customers driven off to other suppliers by the level of price. Nothing strange in it

Is Croatia (in my personal opinion) fine cruising ground? - YES
Is Greece (in my personal opinion) fine cruising ground? - YES
Does Greece (in my personal opinion) offer more diversified sailing possibilities, than Croatia? - YES
Is Croatia (for average cruiser or charterer) more expensive destination than Greece? YES

And regarding charter prices (meaning the cost of chartering the boat):
I do personally believe, that the market in Europe is UNDERPRICED and that charters should be more expensive.
The existing level of prices was caused by different issues and not the least important between them was the long term policy of main boat producers to heavily subsidize the sales for charter market. They paid the price of course - one of the biggest went bankrupt in the matter of fact and was taken over for debts - but the market is where it is. At the present prices charter operators work for their margin by decapitalisation of the boats and it is the reason of rather bad maintenance of charter boats thorough the Europe.
So - I would never suggest to keep charter prices low. I think they must increase substantially in time and I think it will be in long term interest of charterers.

Cheers

Tomasz

[goboatingnow]

So - I would never suggest to keep charter prices low. I think they must increase substantially in time and I think it will be in long term interest of charterers.

well heres a comment that shows no understanding of current market economics

Dave

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

well heres a comment that shows no understanding of current market economics

Dave

Not so bad with me...
I meant long time, Dave, not a year or two...
Look at the charter prices, boat prices, operators/agent fees, depreciation rates and running costs of boats.
By average this business is under break even level at the time and this can not be such forever. But it can last for quite a time
And - of course - I'm talking only about AWB charters. The charter of big boats is completely different thing...


Best regards

Tomasz

[goboatingnow]

This business is under break even level at the time and this can not be such forever. But it can last for quite a time

The charter industry enjoyed spectactular growth and good profits during the later 90's and upto mid 2005,Large numbers of firms entered the marker. They then started to price themselves out of the market, thinking that teh good times would never end. Now they have an expensive product and a market share that is falling.

The key is to return to cost effective pricing and attract the average punter. it matters not that its at break even level or under , it matters that you have a product that is priced right. Thinking you can simply increase pricing to overcome loose cost control is a big mistake

Dave

[DoubleWhisky]

Accidentally I work for investment fund which - for a moment only - considered the possibility of investing in boat industry.

I went through the analysis made, just for curiosity. At least sailing is my hobby
You can be right - to some extent - regarding some local markets - but, I do believe, not in general. Of course, a lot depend on the future policy of main European boatbuilders and their ability to renew preferences for charter market, but it will be rather difficult for them for some time. Most of the charter business is heavily concentrated in the Eastern Med, and there was not increase in prices of charters from the 2005 or 2006. Actually the effective contractual prices there were creeping down all the time and hit the bottom with the credit crunch.

But: we are far off-topic now, and we need some four to six years to witness the outcome

So - Italy or Greece or Croatia, all are great destinations and the charter itself is really not so expensive for now

[pjosip]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Is Croatia (for average cruiser or charterer) more expensive destination than Greece? YES

Have you considered that you are better acquainted with Greece and know the shortcuts and ways around?

I am asking you this because I heard people saying that difference in prices is not that much obvious.

[Looking Glass]

Originally Posted by pjosip

Have you considered that you are better acquainted with Greece and know the shortcuts and ways around?

I am asking you this because I heard people saying that difference in prices is not that much obvious.

Hello

I do quite often charter in Croatia and enjoy it very much. I also charter in Greece on regular basis. Each year me and my friends do two charters in two of three countries: Croatia, Greece and Turkey.
For us the Croatia is most expensive of the three and Greece the cheapest. Of course the differences are not very big. Difficult to tell exactly as every charter is different. It can be 20 % probably for all the costs. But we like Croatia very much and still go there. I think the difference is because of big popularity of Croatia in Germany and east European countries. Lot of people coming, so the prices are higher.
For me the real difference is Greece and even Turkey are bigger, with longer coast. After some years we know all the Croatia shore and have a lot to explore in Greece and Turkey. So probably we will be visiting Croatia less in next years, but it is not because of prices only

[hejapofa]

Our charter experience has been Greece, Turkey and BVI.
Greek Ionian, generally softer winds, very crowded in the summer. Lovely anchorages. Small town harbours very cheap and very beautiful. North of Lefkas Canal less crowded than South unless you sail south of Cephalonia where charters are rarely seen. Restaurants can be a bit "tourist greek" but then that's what you are a tourist like me. Meal for two always seemed to cost 60 euros. Provisioning in small towns can be expensive. Nice villages and countryside.
Greek Peloponese, unless the Meltemi catches you it can be a nice sailing wind. Many fewer boats. Some brilliant destinations. The Argolic Gulf is a good week's sailing and you can come round to Ermioni and up to Epidavros on a second week. Most harbours low cost but Ports of Entry can be pricey e.g. Napflio
Turkey, you didn't ask, but I love it. The Aegean (Tugretreis and North) great wind, lovely anchorages which generally have a single restauraunt and a pontoon. Eat at the restaurant and mooring comes free sometimes including water and power.
Check out Rod Heikel "Greek Waters Pilot" for more inf on Greece.
Italy we have never done - yet.

[swagman]

Originally Posted by danedee

I have a free plane ticket anywhere in the world, one way. That doesn't expire...(well, its more complicated than that... but basically that's what it is)

To take advantage of this, my wife and i want to go sailing... we've done BVI and st vincent and the grenadines, and we're thinking a week in greece or italy or croatia would be PERFECT.

We're looking for delicious FOOD, we're looking for warm water, and light but steady breezes, and places (villages/towns/cities) that we can explore just as much as we sail.

We're kindof leaning towards greece, but then we have to choose between the ionians and the ageans.... i know next to nothing about any of the places we're considering, (besides what the glossy brochures lure me with) so i'm hoping some good folks from here, who've been there, can give me some pros, some con's and some recommendations on 'what not to miss' if i go to where they recommend.

TIA!

~pilotguy

Go with Greece then.
IMHO for one week charter fly into Anthens, charter out of Poros which is not so far to get to by ferry, and do a circuit to see you visit Agina, Hydra, Epidavos and any other ports on that route.
You'll find enough islands to always find a sheltered cove if the winds do get up - and even if they don't at least a place to stop for lunch each day. Plus multiple no or low cost harbours to tie up at night with plenty of shore side bars and restaurants to enjoy. Plus plenty culturally to see ashore on the Peloponese if you choose to get off the boat.
Next time do Croatia. Then next time after do Venice from Croatia!
Enjoy - all of them are IMHO better than BVI''s etc.
JOHN

[pjosip]

Well, I just got back from a 10-day trip from Croatia to Korfu (Greece).

I don't know where you've been but we've been charged 78 euros for a night in marina in Kontokali for a Beneteau Cyclades 50 (we are talking about early April).
The poor dinner at "Andreas" restaurant with 3 palm size fishes and his "you must try this" hints for some white sauce costed 110 euros.

The next day we found another restaurant and payed 44 euros for a more decent launch. We ate chicken and there was a nice side dish of vegetables and potatoes. I noticed that waitress spoke very good English and I commented that in front of her. She said she is English and that all the staff is English. (BTW: could someone explain what is it with all English on Korfu?)

So I had to take an English lunch in Greece to get a decent meal that does not cost too much.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

And regarding charter prices (meaning the cost of chartering the boat):
I do personally believe, that the market in Europe is UNDERPRICED and that charters should be more expensive.
The existing level of prices was caused by different issues and not the least important between them was the long term policy of main boat producers to heavily subsidize the sales for charter market. They paid the price of course - one of the biggest went bankrupt in the matter of fact and was taken over for debts - but the market is where it is. At the present prices charter operators work for their margin by decapitalisation of the boats and it is the reason of rather bad maintenance of charter boats thorough the Europe.
So - I would never suggest to keep charter prices low. I think they must increase substantially in time and I think it will be in long term interest of charterers.

Cheers

Tomasz

Dear Tomasz,

I am afraid yr knowledge on chartering market is not very accurate and superficial.. Running one of the larger charter fleet for some year, I can say that most of yr statements are not valid.
The prices are low: prices are determined by the market and you can do very little about. When I am checking the cost of similar boats to mines in Croatia and Greece, I find that they are up to 30-40 % more expensive. However the charter flights to Greece is much more cheaper than they are for Turkey. This year in particular (maybe the collapse of egyptian and Tunisian destinations..) there is a huge demand for Turkey. The air operators took the advantage and are now charging the double of what it was last year. Now if a family wants wants to come from France, Germany, etc. and charter here, they will have to pay only 2.000-2.500 € for air ticket.
Same family can fly from anywhere in Europe to Rhodes to half this cost. So, to be competitive I have to adjust my price accordingly.
Croatia is even more advantageous in this respect. Most germans, Italians and Austrians can just drive their in couple of hours..

When it comes to the cost of food, mooring, etc. proper comparison is difficult. There are restaurants here that cost up to 100 € per head. There are some others which cost one third with more or less the same food. You should also bear in mind that almost every restaurant has a jetty where you can get free buoys, water and electricity included in the price of the dinner.. This is not the case in Greece, you would hardly find anybody to take yr ropes
Moreover, you can hardly find any fish in a greek taverna; the menu is fixed; greek salad, grilled achtapotus, various fried vegetables, sometimes dolmadis (staffed vegetables).. If you find a fish it will be awfully expensive..
Haven't been to Croatia yet. From what I hear, the landscape is owesome. It seems to be a bit more expensive (generally speaking) than Greece and Turkey. I am also told that the wind is either nothing or too much. Turkey and Greece has more steady winds which is a key for me. But everyone has his own taste.. The season also is longer in southern Greece and Turkey. (which is also helping in keepinng the price more reasonable for charterers )

In short,the comparison must be made apple to apple and can give different result for everyone depending on their priorities.

Cheers

Yeloya