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Old 12-06-2009, 04:23   #91
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New advice on matriculation tax in Spain
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Old 12-06-2009, 07:18   #92
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Well, that information seems to bode well for the original posters. Hope they see it and can use it.

Chris
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:41   #93
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What was the amount demanded in back taxes & penalties ?

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Well, that information seems to bode well for the original posters. Hope they see it and can use it.

Chris
Chris,

I didn't see anything regarding the amount of 'fine and taxes' that was demanded by the Spanish Government. Did you?

The link by Conachair was well worth reading so I suppose the amount demanded was 12% of the boats value?

Casey
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Old 14-06-2009, 23:08   #94
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I just get annoyed when people who have never been a member of our forum get into trouble and then ask the world in Post #1...
Sux.
Yes. But it does remind me to either get lots of papers properly attended to or to move on to the next country every 3 ~ 6 months, minus 12 hours. It is a great part of cruising, anyway. Places are always wonderful if you have been away a little while. AND to spend all the cash needed for good communications. I'm sure they have done me a favour: publishing their bad luck.
I still have to find a down payment, but it is in the start up phase, anyway. with 25 desk=top photos to reinforce it. I'll add a photo of a smiling Guarda.
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Old 21-06-2009, 02:25   #95
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Good Plan

Arch Stanton is right. We were told by an Italian customs official that if we could produce a bar receipt it would prove we'd been out of country.

Don't let the VAT discussions confuse you. VAT rules are pretty even thru-out the EU (the Greeks enforce it and Schengen). 18 Mo.s in then out and back in.

Your problem is a Spainish rule that if you spend too long there, you and your boat are considered Spainish. Boat must be registered as Spainish, comply with Sp rules, etc. Dumb rule, but well known by Med cruzers. Hope you can get clear w/o too much pain.

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Disclaimer: an inexperienced noob who knows little about the situation, so this is likely horrible advice (just an idea):

Could you try playing the bumbling American card and lie?

Most officials are probably sympathetic to your situation, are themselves frustrated with the laws, and will gladly take any justifiable excuse to let you off the hook (literally!)

"Oh you meant contiguous time spent in Spain?! What a silly misunderstanding, I thought you meant total time in Spain! I forgot to mention our trip to {Morocco, France, Portugal, Sardinia, fishing in the Med / Atlantic, wherever} last autumn. Sorry for the confusion, see you later!"
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Old 21-06-2009, 06:09   #96
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This thread has been going for three months now, but not a word from the Christoff's for two and a half months. It would be nice to receive an update from them, in return for all the good information and advice, not to mention time and effort many people have put into their problem.
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Old 22-06-2009, 13:38   #97
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Your problem is a Spainish rule that if you spend too long there, you and your boat are considered Spainish. Boat must be registered as Spainish, comply with Sp rules, etc. Dumb rule, but well known by Med cruzers. Hope you can get clear w/o too much pain.
not really a spainish rule, most EU countries have the 183 rule that makes you a tax residency, its just that in spain there is a resulting property tax that affect boats. But some other countries , like france have nav and port and lights fees if you become a tax resident.
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Old 23-06-2009, 00:25   #98
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Most countries in the world has the same law. 183 days in a tax year and you are resident , have to file a tax return and pay tax according to what the tax treaty and tax laws says.
I suspect that most cruisers just keep a low profile and don't get challenged.
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Old 23-06-2009, 09:33   #99
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Many "States" in the US have similar rules on boats and cars.... In Florida you have 90 days then you have to get Florida Doc's or move remove the boat/ car.

Enforcement is somewhat spotty... but the key is if you have some interface with "officials", this will be the first thing they start asking about. Then your on the wrong side of the laws.

Their legitimate reasons the states/ countries have these laws. It isn't just to punish the cruiser. Most use this money to provide services to the user group and cover cost of these various activities including enforcement.
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Old 08-07-2009, 19:35   #100
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I understand your frustration and initial reaction, but when sailing off of foreign shores, especially if doing so for any period of time and therefore increasing the odds that you will again meet a local governments bureaucracy under adversarial circumstances, you must learn to keep your temper in check. Its their country, their law, and most importantly the local police most often have relative impunity as to the extent of their actions and how they charge you. If they decided that you were being a dick, they could make much more trouble for you than they initially would have.

Swallow your pride, be nice, admit your mistake, look pathetic, and maybe, just maybe, the next time you have your boat back in much shorter order. Not always, but enough to make it worthwhile. And yes, in most countries that are not the US or western Europe, small bribes can work well. However, it depends how far involved the situation already is. If the cops can take the bribe without the situation reversing dramatically and noticeably to outsiders, than you will be more successful. Sometimes even that wont matter and it would work anyway. The poorer the country, the better. However, taking your boat as hostage allows them to extort large sums if they think you are rich, so be careful. Seem as poor as possible. Spain is considered a first world country, but it is not so on the level of the UK or the US. Cops in jurisdictions such as this are in much greater control, with less anti-corruption oversight. Although, it sounds like this situation was the result of a government ordered policy. Hard to win that one. Countries extort money from their citizens through taxes and fines, and transient foreigners from wealthy countries are huge targets. Especially those bringing high value assets into their waters. Consider it part of the cruising tax when or if it happens again. Its not right, but just accept it and get out of the situation with as much grace and as little rage as posssible. Your wallet will be better for it in the long run.

If you go to Southeast Asia, heeding this advice is even more important. Keeping a "cool heart" is culturally critical there, and not doing so would be dramatically against your best interest. You dont want to wind up in the court system, defending yourself against personal charges.

Good luck with your situation, enjoy Spain while in country(hard given the situation, I know), and dont let it sour your future plans. All the best.
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Old 18-07-2009, 21:04   #101
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Well, Spain stupid country?? i dont think so sr, you really made a circunnavigation?
You break the rules , you pay for, and the people of the country are not involved.
I visit many places in spain by boat, and i meet a lot off good people , and sorry to say this , but you made a big mistake with the officer, be rude and insult the country with a officer in front of you dont help nothing.
For me the worst law enforcement in the world is in the USA , and i have in the past a lot of troubles with customs border protection, and i dont blame the country, a lot of good people and friends in USA, is hard to have the boat seized, think about it.
1 year in spanish coast is a lot of time , you pay the vat? you pay the local IVA?
Relax dude , and try the local tapas, wonderfull food.
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Old 19-07-2009, 05:29   #102
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Spain is considered a first world country, but it is not so on the level of the UK or the US.

?? GREAT informed opinion, next time i'm in spain I must remind the port capitain of that ( while I slip him a little bribe of course).

Wise up for god sake. The OP stayed too long in a country and became a defacto tax resident. stupid and irresponsible, his own fault , tough luck.. next time hell pay more attention to soverign countries rules and regs.
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Old 01-09-2009, 11:16   #103
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?? GREAT informed opinion, next time i'm in spain I must remind the port capitain of that ( while I slip him a little bribe of course).

Wise up for god sake. The OP stayed too long in a country and became a defacto tax resident. stupid and irresponsible, his own fault , tough luck.. next time hell pay more attention to soverign countries rules and regs.
Hey, whatever you say. It doesn't matter what the port captain thinks, but what the reality of the status, and effectiveness, of their government and legal system is, no? The quality of such which is compared on a scale to other countries on a regular basis. On that scale, Spain ranks low for a 'first world country'. That, Sir, is 'informed'. That supplants any egotistical notion to hold Spains government to be less corruptable than what the general data says it is. I wasnt giving the OP advice with regard to preserving anyones ego, but based on the reality of most governments in general. Im not saying a bribe would have worked, and that advice was given as a general consideration, to be utilized when appropriate and not utilized when innapropriate, according to the OPs discretion.

Whos not awake? My general advice agrees with your last paragraph. Why so offended and confrontational? You don't have to bribe anyone. No one does. So don't. Others will find it effective in some situations.
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Old 05-09-2009, 19:41   #104
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The quality of such which is compared on a scale to other countries on a regular basis. On that scale, Spain ranks low for a 'first world country'.The quality of such which is compared on a scale to other countries on a regular basis. On that scale, Spain ranks low for a 'first world country'.
WHat offends me is your attitude, Spain regards itself as a modern functional fully paid up member of teh European Union. Advising people that it might be or might not be a lowly raanking first world country is (a) inaccurate (b) useless and (c) insults Spain. For example putting the t UK in with teh US is hardly a fair comparison also.
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Old 08-09-2009, 14:13   #105
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WHat offends me is your attitude, Spain regards itself as a modern functional fully paid up member of teh European Union. Advising people that it might be or might not be a lowly raanking first world country is (a) inaccurate (b) useless and (c) insults Spain. For example putting the t UK in with teh US is hardly a fair comparison also.
This makes me laugh a little bit.

First, let me say that I love visiting Spain. I have nothing against its people or the country itself. I think its a fantastic and unique destination.

However, I also have zero interest in determining whether or not I have "insulted" a country when I comment about it. 'No quarter' will or would be given for any country in this regard. After all, a government doesn't have feelings that I can hurt, does it? Should any country be subject to being "insulted"? What countries can I insult? What countries can I not insult?

I'm only referring to my general impression and knowledge of the government based on the data that Ive seen. No more and no less. How is that 'useless'? How is it innacurate? Because they are a "fully paid member"(whatever that means) of the EU?

So many other factors go into what qualifies a country as first world. These include, but are not limited to:

1. The degree of corruption in law enforcement, the judiciary, and politics.
2. Infrastructure
3. Effectiveness of its legal system in rendering justice in a fair and impartial manner.
4. The quality of life of its citizens
5. To what degree the country is uniform in all of tis 'first world' qualities, and doesn't degenerate as one moves outward of major metropolitan areas (very common).
5. And much more...

Spain ranks high in all of these, but as a rule, has always been ranked a little below the other 'first world' countries in the degree of how 'first world' it is. I think a lot of that has to do with government and corruption, but thats just my opinion. Thats all I was saying... I'm not going to argue further, as your objection seems to be emotional... No offense intended.
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