Advice Needed - Sailing Marmaris / Datca September 17-24, 2011

[memch]

2 of my friends and I are going to charter a bareboat out of Marmaris September 17-24th this year. Other than sailing lessons we had a charter in May 2010 for a week and 3 days in April year before that. We are not very experienced sailors and I am quite worried about the timing of this trip. If anyone can give me some advice I would be greatful.
How are the sailing conditions around these time for the Marmaris area? I am just wondering if we are taking too much of a chance, what are the chances of hitting rough weather, rain etc?
Thank you all in advance for all your help.

[athene]

Fortunately you are chartering outside the main season for the meltemi, the strong NW wind pattern that prevails in this area for much of late June to early September. However, you are going against the prevailing winds from Marmaris round to Datca, so be prepared for quite a bit of beating. The weather is usually glorious at that time of year (though nothing is guaranteed), rather like the English Channel in high summer. It's early October that the weather really starts to change, with heavy downpours possible, though even this month can be very good when the sun shines. At least you're not biting off too much with your proposed itinerary. On your way round, by the way, Knidos is a fascinating place to stop (see entry on World Cruising Wiki: Datca - a Cruising Guide on the World Cruising and Sailing Wiki).

[dandan]

hi

It rains in Marmaris in September two days on average
That does not mean there will be no deviation this year and will be more than average rain days.
For wind, usually there's no wind exceeded this month
Do not forget the weather is not an exact science, and stormy weather
quite possibly
Danny

[Jacques2]

Hi,
In my opinion, your choice is a good one mostly because it will be low season ! You will not sail or moor with hundreds of Gulets or other charter boats everywhere around. As the weather is concerned, who knows ? I preconise "poseidon weather forecasts" even if it is a greek website (and not a turkish one, sorry !) it is more precise (more details) when the straits are concerned (between greek islands and turkish coast)...

[MarkJ]

Wind sometimes drops at night so you can leave very early in the AM to get the better of the headwinds.

Motor into it on day 1 and get upwind if your crew are uncomfortable.

We enjoyed it there last year.

Theres strong winds between the mainland and islands like between Karaburun and Simi and the tiny island south of Siimi.

The most important part of cruising Turkey is not the sailing but the anchoring!

Men in boats will come out and tell you its illegal to anchor/ bad holding etc and offer you a mooring as long as you eat in their restaurant. Obviously its a rip off. Turkish favorite sport is ripping off tourists and chatting up your women so be prepared.

Sometimes we think its easier to pick up a morning than anchor an unfamiliar boat
, but do try to drop the pick yourself. Then you can walk around the restaurants and see what looks best, is full of locals etc.


Check the Sunsail website and you will find their cruising guide online. Study it carefully to help you select good, fun anchorages

[Katiusha]

Regarding anchoring: I would suggest not anchoring, but stopping at a restaurant and picking up a mooring or mooring up to a dock. Moorings/docking are free, but you'll have to eat (maybe just a snack) at the restaurant. This will spare you the effort and stress of anchoring as usually the bottom is: rocks, small rocks, hard sand, or rocks covered with a thin layer of above - perfect conditions for dragging during meltem days or catabatic winds nights with an unfamiliar anchor. You can prepare for it by doing the med moor (anchor + line(s) ashore) but that's slightly stressful with an unfamiliar boat.

Sometimes moorings break so I would suggest picking up a mooring and then testing it by pulling with your engine. Restaurants will also provide a lift to the restaurant from the mooring and back.

If you're worried about docking/mooring, you can always ask help from the people working in the restaurant. They come up by default to help with the moorings and you could ask for help with docking.

There is a guide to restaurants in most harbours in south west Turkey called 101 Restaurants or Bays and Harbours. It's a large format magazine style guide that's sold in most marina shops. Our favorite stop on the way to Datca/Orhaniye is Ciftlik. It's not a long sail out of Marmaris, a very picturesque bay, and good restaurants. We usually stop at the yacht club (left most dock when looking on shore) or the restaurant right next to it with hammocks under fruit trees.

Weather: we use zyGrib - free grib viewer. If I remember correctly, it's French, but you can switch to English (their webiste www.zygrib.org), has all the details. We like it the most as their model even does correction for the coastline effects in Turkey in most cases correctly. Turkish gov website provides good info, but they don't do good forecasts over 1.5 days ahead: http://www.dmi.gov.tr/deniz/marina-tahmin.aspx (have to choose the port). Google translate helps with the words. Haven't used Poseidon much because we are very happy with zyGrib.

Sailing: remember that you'll be sailing near tall mountains so if you stay close to land, you'll get interesting wind effects: wind shadows and increased wind in the valleys. Unless you're ready to hunt for the wind, I would suggest staying 1-2 miles offshore. One thing to remember sailing out of Marmaris: there will be gorgeous wind sailing out of Marmaris bay, but once you get to the outer most capes (Kadirga Burnu, Pirenli Burnu) you'll have a 180 degree wind turn, and then the wind will disappear for some distance.

If you get here on meltem days, once the wind picks up, sailing close to the coast is not very comfortable as the bottom drops off very quickly and waves get reflected by the shore. For the trip up wind to Datca/Bozburun during meltem days it's worth leaving early in the mornings for half a day sailing, so by the time the wind picks up you're already snuggly docked/moored and enjoying the day.

You've chosen the best season for sailing here: warm water, less boats, less tourists, everything is open. If you'd like any more info, let me know - we've been sailing on this coast (Bodrum to Finike) for 14 months and absolutely love it.

[Katiusha]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Men in boats will come out and tell you its illegal to anchor/ bad holding etc

+1. Sometimes they also will tell you the same about the beaches. Beaches are free, beach furniture is not. Ignore these guys.

Originally Posted by MarkJ

... and offer you a mooring as long as you eat in their restaurant. Obviously its a rip off. Turkish favorite sport is ripping off tourists and chatting up your women so be prepared.

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Yep, you will be somewhat ripped off. Last year, after Caribbean, we were of the same opinion as MarkJ. As the time in Turkey went on, for us sometimes it's worth the extra money to do less food prep and enjoy the company of other cruisers/charterers. Also anchoring, it seems, is never easy here... but then we don't have the right anchor type for this area.

About chatting up women: Western women, without meaning to, give signals to Turkish men. Turkish women behave different: don't look for a long time in the eyes, don't smile to unknown men, don't chat.

People will always ask "wherereyoufrom!", but that's for their own classification and figuring out how much tip you'll give. Divulging extra information "I'm from ..., but sailing out of ... to ...." means you're trying to befriend them. Most people you meet in service industry on the coast are there to get as much money as possible. By making you think they're your friend, they might get more money out of you. That's not bad, it's just their business. Don't confuse with friendship.

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Sometimes we think its easier to pick up a morning than anchor an unfamiliar boat

Originally Posted by MarkJ

, but do try to drop the pick yourself.

Before you do that, look at the mountains around you and think: are you at the bottom of a narrow valley surrounded by tall mountains? If yes, then remember that at night you might get 35-ish kn of katabatic winds.
We had an adventure in the middle of the night in Buzu Kale at the back of the bay - gorgeous spot, but all moorings and restaurants are further out. Turned out to be a nighttime wind tunnel...

[yeloya]

I am running a charter business in Marmaris and have been sailing this area for years. I am surprised to see that 9 info out of 10 given above are either inaccurate or totally wrong.. I don't know which one I should correct, but let's try;
-the week you are referring is not off season but actually one of the busisest weeks. In some areas like Göçek bay frequented by turkish sailors and motor baots would be quiter as the schools are opening, but again charter boats and crusiers will all be around and all of the restaurants will be open.
-It's true that meltemi will be less reliable in this period of the year, but since the last 2-3 years meltemi sets up later and last longer. In any case, most likely you will have enough wind for sailing and form the northwest. The chances for getting anything above 25 kts is close to zero..(but can happen..) Even so, there are plenty of well protected bays. Take a morring line from a restaurant like Katuisha suggested. The quitest time in this area is November when we wash our sails and dry them under the sun..
-Rain in September, I've never seen so far, but it's possible. It won't last long and the temperature will never go below 22-23 degrees and maybe around 20 in the night. Sea temp. will be around 22-23 minimum. Could be a bit chilly as you approach Bodrum but always >20 degrees celcius.
-I don't know how much time Mark J had spent in the area to come to the conclusions like"men at boat coming to you", ripping off the tourists" or "chatting up yr women", etc..
This might be a jog.. I've sailed with turkish, american, german flagged boats for transfer or cruising many times with my wife and never ever such a thing happened.. Not even close..
In some places (Bozukkale is one of them) ladies with a small ding are coming and trying to sell you various staff. (honey, olives, vegetables, some local textiles, etc..) Sometime they may even be sticky but once you say "no, I don't need" they will disappear. Never seen any man on the boat saying it's illegal to do so or so..If it happens, tell them that you will call coast guard (dial 156). Turks are sometimes exagerating the hospitality and they may become unpleasant.
-The crime is unexistant anywhere in Turkish coasts or nearby Greek islands. Never heard anything. (only from our base every year 700-800 charter boats are leaving and cruising in this area us..)



Have fun

Yeloya

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by yeloya

-I don't know how much time Mark J had spent in the area to come to the conclusions like"men at boat coming to you", ripping off the tourists" or "chatting up yr women", etc..

Originally Posted by yeloya

Yeloya

I've been there and sailed out of Marmaris 3 times:
92-93 doing deliveries for Sunsail
1998 - 2 months
2010 April to end June. Fetheyia to Dardanelles and return.

We loved it and I will go back sometime. But the things I say stand.
Its better than Egypt, but the harassment is worse than other countries. Greece is far better; the Caribbean astounding in comparison.

Turkey is a wonderful cruising area however it could be shooting itself in the foot if the attitude continues.

You, Yeloya, may be a local so you would not have to endure the gauntlet that non-Turks do just to walk along the street from Ataturk statue to Netsel Marina. 100 businesses all asking you in, 100 times a polite 'No' 100 leering faces at you wife/girlfriend. When is someone just allowed to walk along the friggin street?

Even you recommend taking a mooring line and being behoven to a restaurant! Why try restrict the choice? Why not allow people to anchor and go chose a place themselves? If the businesses are good, fair priced and honest the tourists/cruisers/locals will come! Places will be full. But a place that needs to badger, coherce and lie to get a customer will never help Turkey in the long term.

So I gave my advice as I see it. Forewarned is forearmed and those folks may at least be aware and consequently enjoy themselves more.


Turkey is a great place to visit. But it is brought down substantially in my mind by the shady business practices and the attitude of men to visiting women.

The history is real in Turkey:

Temple of Athena in Behram Kale (Ancient Assos)

[yeloya]

Dear Mark J,

The tread reads "SAILING Marmaris / Datça", doesn't it ? So, I leave yr comments about WALKING from "Ataturk statue to Netsel marina".. If anyone has a request of advice on this, I would give separately, not on this tread. All I can say, is that Turkey has changed a lot since yr last time you were here and I am sure you will enjoy more next time.

Yes, the restaurants have a jetties, they invest significant amount of money to keep them + they pay to local municipalities some fees. But one is totally FREE to use them or not. As Katuisha suggested, I too suggest particularly for those who are not familiar with the region, to use them. After all, you get yr electricity, not always but sometimes yr water, you have a decent dinner and you pay for it. Some restaurants are reasonably priced while some others not. Most of the time I make a route briefing for our customers and I tell them which one to go, which one to avoid. But never and ever did I heard nor seen someone approaching and threatening you with non holding anchors or whatever. Yes, if there are more than one restaurants in one bay, they would all rush to their jetties and try to attract you with their flags on their hand. But, as I said, you may go wherever you like and anchor. After all, there are plenty of pilote books and you know where you can anchor, unless you want to anchor on their mooring lines


I follow your postings in the Caribbean and wish you all the best, I'll be there next year..

Yeloya

[Katiusha]

yeloya, I agree with MarkJ about hassling - it's very annoying for "yabanci" [foreigners]. We are from places where if spoken to, you have to be polite and pay attention and reply. It takes a lot of practice to ignore "whereyoufrom", "heyladylook", "comeseeourmenu", "lookout", etc calls when you're trying to relax and enjoy yourself walking down the street. Your first thought is that you should pay attention and reply. And then you get trapped into considering their place. It's very good for their business, but not enjoyable for customers. After some time I learnt to ignore these people, but in the beginning it was impossible to enjoy places.

MarkJ, if you ever end up in Turkey again: you just think that they are not there, sort of like a talking wardrobe or something. You ignore them. If they come closer, squint your eyes a bit and raise your head in the first part of Western agreeing nod. That means "no" in Turkish. Sometimes though they're funny and it's like a free street performance.

I've watched some of these guys and after a while I realised that they do this automatically. You know how in States or Canada service people smile? Well, in Turkey they talk to you. It doesn't mean anything, same as "howareyou" in North America. I am originally Russian and when I moved to Canada it befuddled me why people are always asking how I'm doing. So every time I would give an extended answer to "How are you?" even to strangers including service industry people, you know the type of "well. I'm feeling quite well now, but yesterday I started developing a cold, but then my friends visited me and brought me medicine and ..." etc. And people would look at me funny. So I decided that North Americans are shallow people ["why do they ask how am I if they don't want to know?"]. Then I realised that it's just a social protocol and nobody really wants to know how you're doing. It's their way of saying "Hi" politely. So in Turkey it's just a service industry protocol. Think of it just as a collection of sounds that don't carry any meaning.

Happy sailing!

[Jacques2]

Hi !
Last year in Kusadasi i red a Turkish newspaper in english and inside there was a paper with the tittle "No harassment" . It was a translation of a paper published in well known Turkish newspaper and it was written in direction of all the merchants to tell them to stop to harass the tourists because it was inefficient and damageable for the tourism industry ! Since, when it happens I just say "No harassment please !" and Turkish people stop immediately and laugh with me ! Really, there is no problem.
As the behavior regarding women is concerned, nothing to do in comparison with Magreb countries ... My wife and my daughter (very beautiful both of them) never had any kind of problem. Turkish people are very nice and civilized people, they have nothing to learn of us about civilized and polite behavior...

[touchngo]

I have been following this thread with a bit of interest. Our boat is in Marmaris, and we're essentially sailing a similar course as the OP (although we'll be heading to Knidos and then up to Gumusluk to visit some friends, so are pushing on a bit further).

I can second the Bay & Restaurant Guide Magazine. The company that manages our boat, puts a copy on the boat for all guests and it is worth the few Euro's it costs. Handy for digging out the numbers of the more popular restaurants to reserve a table (Aurora in Selimiye is one that comes to mind).

As far as the route goes, it is easily possible to have a good mix of mooring to lazy lines, anchoring and even lying to the town quay in Datca. As has been posted before, most of the time you'll have a nice sailing breeze out of Marmaris that dies as you turn the corner at the cape near Ciftlik. If you don't fancy stopping, turn the donk on, and motor for Serce Limani or Lorymar (Bozuk Kale) or even Gerbekse Bay if you don't fancy going further. You won't be hassled if you choose to anchor in either, but both have restaurants with moorings should you choose to moor (they will all have young blokes in dinghies waving flags to get your attention). From any of these places, Bozburun or Sogut are easily reachable, as is Dirsek or Paradise Bay (aka Sailors Paradise depending on what Pilot/Restaurant Guide you read). Selimye and Orhaniye/Marti Marina are an easy hop again, and if you want to anchor out and not got the restaurant route, why not head over to Inbuku or Sucagiz Koyu? If you fancy heading further afield than Datca, Hayit Buku and Palmut Buku are handy ports of call on the way to Knidos, and if time is on your side, then head into Gokava Korfezi to get off the beaten track.

We love Turkey, and must say that we have hardly ever been bothered by touts etc... but that could be because we don't spend a lot of time in towns. Having said that, we did spend a lovely few days in Gocek last year and the only unpleasant aspect was the hot wind (it was as bad as here in Bahrain!).

Hope this helps the OP, and should you wish, I have some OpenCPN Routes and a GE kmz file for some of the places that you may be interested in.

Cheers, PT.

[keseyken]

MarkJ, I've sailed out of Gocek east and west quite a number of times. I can honestly say that neither I nor any of my crew have ever been hassled while in Turkey. On the contrary, we find the Turkish people to as gentle, obliging, hospitable and fun as it is possible to be. We just love the sailing, the restaurants, the scenery, the history and the people - and I am delighted to say we are going back again next week for a fortnight.

I see you are based in Grenada. I've sailed from Grenada up and down to St. Lucia many times and really like the area, and the people I've met. There are some places that the boat boys get a bit over-exuberant, some places that they can get annoying, some that it is best to stay away from, and most that they are helpful. Unfortunately there have been incidents in parts of St. Vincent that spoil things for everyone. That is part of life, unfortunately. By far the most of the people I've come across in the Caribbean I would love to meet again.

I've not had your experience in Turkey - as I said very much the contrary in fact. It is very much one of my favourite places to visit and to sail in.

I hope the OP, memch, and his pals have a great time, gentle breezes and a holiday to remember for the pleasure that it brings.

Fair winds,

kesey

[swagman]

It's all getting a bit off subject. Yelola lives in the region, has more sailing exprience there than other posters. Maybe worth taking his advice on weather and locations.

But re the thread drift - it is really just as wrong to say you do not get hassled in some parts of Turkey as it is to say they are the worst in the world..........

We kept our boat in Kemer one year and walking uptown always led to what I'd call 'conversations'. But was it ever an issue? Not really. Just part of the scene and easy to enjoy if you joined into the banter.

We also were lucky to cruise right along the Turkish coast into towns with little or no tourists. All we got there were warm greetings.

If anyone wanted another view on the scale of hassle in Turkey, we found it overall to be less than we got from the boat boys in the Caribbean.

But that's just what we experienced.
Others obviously have differing views.

Vive la difference and lets just keep sharing. I wish the OP a great holiday sailing in the region...........

JOHN