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Old 11-10-2016, 13:28   #31
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

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Boatman61-Thanks for the recap, I have done my homework and I believe Gib, in a pinch wouldn't satisfy most EU officials. That said I can understand why Spanish authorities accept Gib as being outside the EU as it is literally a thorn in their side. I have no idea why the Italians would accept Gib as being outside the EU, just ignorance, maybe.

For me, I go to Tangier, Morocco, it is just a few more miles and it definitely meets the requirements of being outside of EU waters.

Praire Chicken-Where and how did you (owner/you) clear into Palma? With La Policia Nacional de Fronteras at the cruise ship terminal? I ask, because I did the same thing earlier this summer, and had a very difficult time re-clearing into Spain from Gib into Palma. The Policia Nacional de Fronteras at the cruise ship terminal basically told me they couldn't clear me in and that I should check in when I got to Barcelona. In Barcelona they wanted me to use an agent!

Praire Chicken-Please provide links to the article about the changes. Thanks.

Again, does anyone on CF have firsthand knowledge about using Gib as a VAT clock reset? Meaning they have had EU officials from an EU country ask about the vessel's VAT status, and length of time in the EU, and being satisfied with the boat being in Gib, as outside of the EU?
How many times do I have to write it down?

YES we have first hand recent experience with VAT issues, I deal with these issues every year. Contact us or just keep reading all the second hand internet stuff. The choice is yours.
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Old 11-10-2016, 19:02   #32
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

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Spending a day or three in Gibraltar resets a vat clock just fine for Spain and Italy. That's how we recently reset ours per recommendation by Spanish and Italian customs officials. And yes, our documents indicating the boat had been in Gibraltar satisfied the Italian and Spanish officials upon our return to those countries when the boat was placed in a customs bond.

Tunisia, Montenegro, Albania and Turkey also work well along with Guernsey. In a couple of years, the UK looks to be another choice.
Kenomac-Specifically what/which Gib docs do you refer?

Just to make sure I understand your experience, upon return from Gib to both Spain (please provide name of port of entry) & Italy (please provide port of entry), the officials in each country/port specifically asked how long your vessel had been in the EU, and you indicated that your vessel's entry into the EU occurred after exiting Gib, and they (the officials) said you had 18 months from your re-entry into the EU until you must leave? The wording is essential. According to your account, I understand Spanish & Italian officials offered the advice, that in their estimation Gib was a place to reset your EU VAT clock. But it is a different scenario when an official asks about your EU VAT status and requests your supporting documentation and is or isn't satisfied. Also, it sounds like during a customs bonding (which I admit zero knowledge ) you offered that your boat had been out of the EU (meaning Gib). It is a Jedi mind trick that works 99% of the time. Please, don't read any hostility or skepticism into my post, I would simply like to get the details (and also make them available for all interested CF users). I am trying to learn, the ways of the Med.

Yes, I am aware that the EU officials don't interpret or enforce the rules uniformly (even within the the same country).

Why did you not mention Morocco, Cueta, Melilla, Algeria, Libya (I can understand), Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, or Northern Cyprus as additional places to reset the EU VAT clock? Of course, there are also numerous countries bordering the Black Sea, that would qualify too.
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Old 11-10-2016, 19:55   #33
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

Chip-

Your questions have been answered - you just want evidence that will stand up in court. You won't get that here.

Gibraltar is inside the EU but not inside Schengen, the customs union, or the VAT area. Schengen is a common passport area, which relates only to immigration matters - not commerce - so not relevant. The customs union and VAT are of interest here, and Gibraltar is outside. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specia...European_Union

As with others here, I reset the customs/VAT clock at Gibraltar (twice). It will work.

Greg
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Old 11-10-2016, 20:26   #34
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

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Kenomac-Specifically what/which Gib docs do you refer?

Just to make sure I understand your experience, upon return from Gib to both Spain (please provide name of port of entry) & Italy (please provide port of entry), the officials in each country/port specifically asked how long your vessel had been in the EU, and you indicated that your vessel's entry into the EU occurred after exiting Gib, and they (the officials) said you had 18 months from your re-entry into the EU until you must leave? The wording is essential. According to your account, I understand Spanish & Italian officials offered the advice, that in their estimation Gib was a place to reset your EU VAT clock. But it is a different scenario when an official asks about your EU VAT status and requests your supporting documentation and is or isn't satisfied. Also, it sounds like during a customs bonding (which I admit zero knowledge ) you offered that your boat had been out of the EU (meaning Gib). It is a Jedi mind trick that works 99% of the time. Please, don't read any hostility or skepticism into my post, I would simply like to get the details (and also make them available for all interested CF users). I am trying to learn, the ways of the Med.

Yes, I am aware that the EU officials don't interpret or enforce the rules uniformly (even within the the same country).

Why did you not mention Morocco, Cueta, Melilla, Algeria, Libya (I can understand), Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, or Northern Cyprus as additional places to reset the EU VAT clock? Of course, there are also numerous countries bordering the Black Sea, that would qualify too.
All you need from Gibraltar is the check in form and check out dock which is obtained from the marina office in Gibraltar. Get a copy of the mooring and fuel receipts. The same goes for any of the other countries used like Montenegro, etc. We entered Italy via Olbia, Sardinia and exited via Brindisi. Done the same via San Giorgio di Nogaro. Spain via various ports such as Cartegena. No problems anywhere, basically the same procedure.

Be nice to the customs officials and they'll be friendly and helpful in return. In Italy the time in the EU can be stretched for nearly four years, Spain around three years if you folllw the rules and know what you're doing. 18 months is not a set number of months. If you don't believe me.... spend some money on customs agents like we did and find out for yourself.

You can take your boat to Libya if you prefer, we choose not to go there.

Usually when I post this type of information on CF, nobody believes me anyway, so what's the point?
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Old 11-10-2016, 21:00   #35
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

CarinaPDX-I want to move my boat outside of EU waters every 18 months, and I do want that move to stand up in court (that is why I sail across the straits to Tangier), I would have thought that all owners would want the same, given that impoundment and payment of VAT would be a very inconvenient and expensive proposition. Yet, I acknowledge from my own experience that (as I previously posted) the rules are not interpreted or enforced uniformly (even within the same countries).

I also understand, that the info I get from the CF isn't professional legal advice. However, I am striving to understand how others are coping with the regulations.

I asked for specific info, countries/ports, proffering info vs being asked for it, etc... because I want the most detailed info on how I can duplicate your and the successes of others. I thought that sharing experiences and first hand knowledge was the the purpose/function of CF.

I too reset my vessel's EU VAT clock twice (both times in Tangier), but I've never had a Portuguese or Spanish official specifically audit (or even express interest) in the amount of time my vessel has been in EU waters. I understand the Spanish lack of interest about this issue, but I have also read that the French and Greek are sticklers for the VAT regs so I'm trying to educate myself on how best to navigate the potential obstacles ahead.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 11-10-2016, 21:36   #36
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

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All you need from Gibraltar is the check in form and check out dock which is obtained from the marina office in Gibraltar. Get a copy of the mooring and fuel receipts. The same goes for any of the other countries used like Montenegro, etc. We entered Italy via Olbia, Sardinia and exited via Brindisi. Done the same via San Giorgio di Nogaro. Spain via various ports such as Cartegena. No problems anywhere, basically the same procedure.

Be nice to the customs officials and they'll be friendly and helpful in return. In Italy the time in the EU can be stretched for nearly four years, Spain around three years if you folllw the rules and know what you're doing. 18 months is not a set number of months. If you don't believe me.... spend some money on customs agents like we did and find out for yourself.

You can take your boat to Libya if you prefer, we choose not to go there.

Usually when I post this type of information on CF, nobody believes me anyway, so what's the point?

Kenomac-Thanks for your reply. You verified my experience with Gib docs (I never obtained or saw a "official looking Practique document from the Gib Harbor office") just a marina receipt.

Still, I'm curious. I've never been to Cartegena. Did you actually deal with Aduanas (the people you dealt with wore uniforms with the word Aduanas on them)? I've never dealt with Aduanas in Spain. As I understand it Aduanas is a service provided by a special branch of the Guardia Civil. In Spain, the only officials I've ever dealt with are the Polica Nacional Fronteras (they act as the immigration service provided by a special branch of the Polica Nacional). I have repeatedly asked these officials if I needed to also contact Aduanas, and their response has always been no. Am I missing something?

In which Med countries/ports did you employ a customs agent? Any recommendations?

I specifically wrote that I understood why you didn't include Libya, but rather, asked why you didn't include Morocco, Cueta, Mellilla, Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, or Northern Cyprus. I'm not trying to be smart, I'm asking in case you have any first hand knowledge about using those places to reset your EU VAT clock.
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Old 11-10-2016, 22:26   #37
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

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Kenomac-Thanks for your reply. You verified my experience with Gib docs (I never obtained or saw a "official looking Practique document from the Gib Harbor office") just a marina receipt.

Still, I'm curious. I've never been to Cartegena. Did you actually deal with Aduanas (the people you dealt with wore uniforms with the word Aduanas on them)? I've never dealt with Aduanas in Spain. As I understand it Aduanas is a service provided by a special branch of the Guardia Civil. In Spain, the only officials I've ever dealt with are the Polica Nacional Fronteras (they act as the immigration service provided by a special branch of the Polica Nacional). I have repeatedly asked these officials if I needed to also contact Aduanas, and their response has always been no. Am I missing something?

In which Med countries/ports did you employ a customs agent? Any recommendations?

I specifically wrote that I understood why you didn't include Libya, but rather, asked why you didn't include Morocco, Cueta, Mellilla, Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, or Northern Cyprus. I'm not trying to be smart, I'm asking in case you have any first hand knowledge about using those places to reset your EU VAT clock.
I used customs bond agents in Spain and went to Gibraltar because it was the closest place the agents told me to go. I also used a customs bond agent in Italy who was able to stretch our time inside the EU to almost four years. Now with the boat in the Adriatic we no longer need to worry about bonding, since it's now easier and cheaper just to make an yearly stop in Montenegro. You might want to check the validity of exiting via Tangier, aren't a few of the northern Moroccan ports still a part of Spain?
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Old 12-10-2016, 01:38   #38
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

Kenomac: Ceuta and Melilla are what you are thinking of. They are part of Spain and the EU, are theoretically in Schengen but not in either the EU Customs Zone or the VAT area. Which is to say in a very similar status as Gibraltar. See my previous link.

ccannan: I apologize for any intemperance before. It's just that it seems you won't be satisfied until someone can confirm that Gib won't work for VAT reset, and that could be a very long wait. (At least, unless Brexit is resolved badly but I think also later.) Many folks leave their boats in Gib to avoid the EU taxes, and visit the EU in the summers (or longer). It is done all the time. During the years I was in the Med (including a year in Gib) I never met anyone who had a problem with that. And no one has yet posted any such examples. Do you know something to the contrary?

When I first arrived in the EU I made landfall in Ireland. After all the bureaucracy in the Caribbean I mistakenly assumed it would be the same in the EU. So upon arrival on a Sunday I called customs - to be greeted by an answering machine. So the next day I called and left another message. When I finally got through to a human he assured me that he got the message the first time, they knew I was there and if they happened to run across me they might do some paperwork but otherwise stop calling. After that I found that some countries cared, others didn't, but seldom were customs difficult (YMMV, particularly based on how much you smile).

About half way through my 12 year stay in Europe the Portuguese customs, particularly on the Algarve, got a reputation for busting non-EU boats for VAT. I was nervous about it when I sailed in from Galicia (I was over the 18 months), just at dusk. A uniformed Portuguese customs officer ran down to the quay as I tied up, yelling and waving his hands. He said to grab my papers and hurry with him - I didn't even have time to kill the nav lights. We ran up to the building, my fear palpable. He turned to me and took my papers, tossing them through a window and quickly motioning me on. He led me to where other officers were sitting on chairs and he told me to sit down and put out my hand. I couldn't understand what was happening to me. Then a roll was put in my hand, I was shown how to tear it open like a hamburger bun and a sardine appeared on it. I was speechless (admittedly unusual) as I slowly realized that he rushed because he didn't want the fish to get cold. They didn't understand the stunned look on my face, and asked what else I wanted. Before I could speak a tumbler full of local wine appeared. Now this is definitely not the average experience; it just shows how fear can distort perceptions. (I still avoided the Algarve.) Unless you have good reason to fear a particular customs office, or country, just assume the best. If some customs office decides to misinterpret Gib's status the news will spread quickly. Just have the proof, be nice to them, explain your point and only if necessary ask politely to talk to the boss. It just isn't a problem, so enjoy.

Greg
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Old 12-10-2016, 04:02   #39
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

To perhaps clarify clearing in & out of Gib...
Upon our arrival at the Queensway Marina we got tied up then took the ships papers & all passports to the marina office. Forms were filled in and photocopies made. I asked a number of questions and the office advised they acted as representatives of Customs. They entered our data into what I understood to be a Customs website and sent copies of our papers & pasports to Customs. During our stay the marina received a response back with confirmation Customs had checked the docs & were satisfied with them. On departure, & at the request of the skipper, this confirmation would be printed & provided to him as evidence of having cleared into Gib. I have a copy of that doc as I wanted it as evidence we Canadians had been outside of Schengen even though we won't exceed our time this trip. (That doc is packed away with our travel bags but if I think of it later I will get the title of the form off it & post it here.). It is that form which the skipper took to the Aduanas here in Palma. More on that after I have lunch with the skipper today. No passports were stamped but I asked if it was possible to get stamps. The marina said we could, just go to the Land Customs office at the airport & make the request. We didn't do that.

Our first port back in Spain was Fuerngirola and the skipper filled in the forms at the marina office. Perhaps 45 minutes later 2 policia (not Guardia, locals I think), came to the boat & asked to check passports. No problems for our EU skipper, my OH, or myself (we had stamps of our arrival in the EU a few weeks earlier) but the skipper's Canadian wife didn't have an arrival stamp in her passport so had to produce her Spanish residencia card. Then the policia were satisfied; all was friendly.

Someone asked who the Aduanas are. My understanding is they are Customs. I don't know of them being associated with the Guardia Civil, but as in all civilized countries, gov't & law enforcement agencies cooperate. We have been boarded by the Aduanas 3 times in 23 years here in the Balearics. In all cases they zoomed up in their rib, announced who they were, and that they were boarding. They inspected all dos & passports and not once asked about VAT. Their biggest interest seemed to be when we had been stamped into the EU, and in one case that we did not exceed our six months in country. (huh?--6 months?). Our Dutch neighbours have never been checked & have been here just as long. We think that big Canadian flag attracts the Aduanas so we do try to be as legal as we possibly can.


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Old 12-10-2016, 10:29   #40
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

CarinaPDX-I see that Gib seems to suffice for Spanish officials and possibly Italian too. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am simply trying to get the story straight. My experience in EU waters aboard my boat is just 2 years, and limited to Portugal, Spain, and Gibraltar. However, my experience with officials in the EU seem to mirror yours. They have all been very courteous and I have never had any difficulties. That said, paying VAT (21-25% depending on the country) on the current value of my vessel would not be inexpensive, and I imagine if it ever came to that there would be lawyers involved, so I will continue to stop in Tangier, Morocco (which is definitely outside EU waters) and not take the risk (albeit a very low probability). Again, I'm not trying to convince others to change their behavior.

My experience in Portugal is almost as funny as yours. After checking out of Spain, I sailed to Tangier, checked in and out and then sailed to Portugal and tried to clear into Olhao. I found proper offices, paid my 2 Euros of light tax, and was told, that I didn't need to come to find them (immigration & customs), they would come and find me. We'll I spent 2 weeks in Portugal, and never ran into any official interested in talking to me. I went back to Spain, and had to clear in again, as I never got an entry stamp in Portugal!

Prairie Chicken-My experience in and out of Gib mirrors mine, thanks for providing the details. I really look forward to read your report about where and with which organization(s) your skipper cleared into Palma (as I did the same and had lots of difficulty). Although, I assured the immigration people I was arriving from Gibraltar, I had a stamp showing my exit from Spain, but no stamp showing an entrance into Gib or departing Gib. Of course, I produced my Queensway marina receipt, and they weren't impressed. They insisted they couldn't or wouldn't stamp my passport showing entrance into Spain and directed me to Barcelona (my ultimate destination 2 months later). They knew of my plans to visit Ibiza, Mallorca, and Menorca before heading to Barcelona and were comfortable with me visiting with no entry stamp into Spain. When my eldest son left Palma via airplane to Barcelona to catch a flight to the USA, I finally convinced them to stamp his passport as having entered Spain. I didn't want my son to have any problems while trying to leave Spain via Barcelona.

I don't think the Aduanas boats that patrol the waters of Spain are part of the same organization that we loosely term customs, and to which we refer when clearing into or out of Spain. In Spain, the immigration service is operated by the CNP (Cuerpo Nacional de Policia) Fronteras (wearing black uniforms very much like the Polica Local), at the airports, the customs service is operated by the Guardia Civil (it may very well be different for maritime operations). Again, despite my inquires, I haven't had any contact with anyone about customs in Spain, which is why I am asking for details!

Your Dutch flagged friends wouldn't attract attention because they are EU flagged.

Yes, apparently, the Spanish are now enforcing a relatively new residency law. You can't be in Spain more than 180 days in any 365 day period (or something to that effect). If you spend more time you must apply to be a resident, which totally changes your tax status, etc...

I found the web site for Islander Magazine. Thanks. Unfortunately, the current issue is now the October issue, and I couldn't find a link to the older issue, however, I sent an email to the editor asking for an electronic copy. Thanks again.

Kenomac-Tangier, Morocco is definitely outside EU waters, and therefore without any ambiguity resets an EU VAT clock (period).

Just so I understand your experience, you have employed agents to handle your vessel's affairs when clearing into Spanish ports (after arriving from outside EU VAT jurisdiction) and not dealt with the government officials yourself (is this correct)?
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Old 12-10-2016, 11:50   #41
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

Not correct. We have had agents take care of things four times, twice in Spain and twice in Italy. I've also taken care of customs issues myself at least eight times, including purchasing large items for export from VAT zones.

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Old 12-10-2016, 12:47   #42
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

Kenomac-Would you be willing to share your experiences (in detail) when you entered Spain from a country outside EU VAT jurisdiction and didn't employ agents. Specifically, I'm interested in the names of the ports, the names of the Spanish entities (not just "customs" or "immigration") with which you dealt. Were they co-located, etc...

Sorry, this isn't the inquisition, I'm just trying to see if I've done anything wrong as my boat has been on the eastern side of the Atlantic for over 2 years (mostly in Spain) and I've never had contact with Spanish "customs" officials only Spanish "immigration" officials.
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Old 12-10-2016, 13:24   #43
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

Prairie Chicken-I can't find a September issue, are you sure it isn't the October issue. Also, a page number would be helpful the islander.net website is not the most helpful.
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Old 13-10-2016, 05:38   #44
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

We are still not finished the paperwork. Network Group have asked for another document from the owners so standby for further details.


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Old 13-10-2016, 05:55   #45
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Re: A day or two in Gib ... Where to stay, what to do?

Is it Network Marine Consultants or Network Group?
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