8 Years in the Med?

[goboatingnow]

If you plan to spend so much time in the Schengen Area as to worry about it, then I suggest you simply get a residence permit from a Schengen Area country. For citizens of the countries we've been discussing, such as Canada, USA, OZ, NZ, etc., it is easy to get a one-year residence permit. Those automatically include the right to be in each Schengen Area country for three months out of six.

I would question this as good advice

Resident Visas are difficult to access unless one intends actually taking up residence, Becoming a resident in the EU can make one applicable for tax, including immediately removing the available of TIR vat relief.

Its not a "light" option, needs careful consideration and has many gotchas ( like in France the whole "non-activ", health insurance issue etc).

Note Monaco is inside the Schengen areas for the purposes of whats being considered. It cannot be used as a quick fix.

There is no doubt that it can be done with some hassle , and hence multi-year stays can be organised, but to stick to the letter of the law, requires a fair degree of pain,


as I said in the Med, in general ( your mileage may vary) , if you are from the US, Canada etc, unless you violate the 90 days in anyone country, the chances of a continous Schengen overstay check are rare enough. Yes you are overstaying, but hey !!


Dave

[sailorboy1]

I'm with Skip on this! It just is starting to sound that cruising the Med has too many loopholes! Seems all it takes is one bored offical and you are screwed!

Having to "get out" and restart the clock seems it would take forever to cruise it and you end up spending a bunch of downtime waiting. I am interested in cruising and sightseeing, not sitting around waiting.

I find it weird that all these different countries got together to place such a restriction on visiting the Med.

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I would question this as good advice

Fair enough. I don't mind being questioned. I have a question for you though. Are you qualified to give legal advice? In the EU?

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Resident Visas are difficult to access unless one intends actually taking up residence, Becoming a resident in the EU can make one applicable for tax, including immediately removing the available of TIR vat relief.

Having a residence permit does not create a tax liability. Being actually resident in one EU member state for 183 days within a calendar year creates a tax liability. In the worst case (which is unlikely in the current context), having a residence permit might create a presumption of a tax liability, but showing that one was not actually present in the country for 183 days in the calendar year clears that right up. Having a residence permit does not create an obligation to actually reside there. Failure to be in the EU (not the Schengen Area) for at least one day per year creates a legal basis for refusing to renew a residence permit -- even a permanent residence permit -- but that's probably not at issue here. If one is asked if one is a resident, having a residence permit does not require one to answer affirmatively. Only actual residence for 183 days in a calendar year requires one to answer affirmatively.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Note Monaco is inside the Schengen areas for the purposes of whats being considered. It cannot be used as a quick fix.

Every day for which one can show presence in Monaco cannot be counted toward days spent in the Schengen Area. Monaco automatically and without any formalities grants access to anyone legally in the Schengen Area so, from a practical standpoint Monaco may appear as part of the Schengen Area, but Monaco is legally not part of the Schengen Area. If you have paperwork showing that your boat was moored in the Monaco marina and you have an (undated) Monaco stamp in your passport, the burden of proof would be on the immigration authorities to prove that you were not in Monaco during the days your boat was moored in Monaco. One might be delayed an hour to speak with a supervisor. On the other hand, if they can prove that one was in the Schengen Area on a day when one claimed to be in Monaco, then one could be in serious trouble.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There is no doubt that it can be done with some hassle , and hence multi-year stays can be organised, but to stick to the letter of the law, requires a fair degree of pain

It is for each person to decide how much they value strict compliance with law that probably will not be enforced versus how much they value avoiding paperwork.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

as I said in the Med, in general ( your mileage may vary) , if you are from the US, Canada etc, unless you violate the 90 days in anyone country, the chances of a continous Schengen overstay check are rare enough. Yes you are overstaying, but hey !!

Yes, I agree with this, but professional ethics prohibit me from advising anyone to deliberately break the law.

[goboatingnow]

Fair enough. I don't mind being questioned. I have a question for you though. Are you qualified to give legal advice? In the EU?

ogh Im not a lawyer, i was involved in two situations in regards residence visas. I would say that they are not easy to get for the purposes being talked about here. Perhaps you can actually show me which long term visas you propose would be suitable here.

As to tax liability, I merely said it "can make one" not "will make one". I fully agree that merely in possession of a resident visa does not make one a tax resident.

dave

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

ogh Im not a lawyer, i was involved in two situations in regards residence visas. I would say that they are not easy to get for the purposes being talked about here. Perhaps you can actually show me which long term visas you propose would be suitable here.

Each EU member state has different rules for residence permits. I would have to ask a long series of personal questions before I could make a recommendation. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. As to whether it's easy or difficult, there is no canonical benchmark by which we can measure that. Each person will have a different tolerance for overall time required, time required in country, time waiting in queues, lawyer fees, filling out forms, being photographed, etc.

When I've arranged one-year residence permits for Russian bow babes, they've needed to spend a total of perhaps about eight hours distributed among four or five sessions of dealing with bureaucrats. Most of the paperwork was done for them. They generally remained in country for several weeks during the process because most of them had single-entry visas, which would not be a limitation for most cruisers here.

For most cruisers, I think the best solution is to keep a log of which days one is in the Schengen Area, with each "first entry", other entry, and exit clearly marked. On days when one is outside the Schengen Area, log either international waters or the country. Compliance just requires a bit of planning and a bit of flexibility. I see it as part of the adventure of cruising. There are few regions in the world which are as liberal about visa-free travel.

One advantage of the residence permit route is that after five consecutive years of official residence (which might involve tax liabilities) in any one Schengen Area EU member state, one qualifies (perhaps after a language exam) for permanent Schengen Area residence, which can be maintained for life without tax liability by visiting the Schengen Area for one day each year and the member state which issued the permanent residence permit for at least one day every six years. The permanent residence permit provides the right to stay in the Schengen Area as a whole without limitation and in any one member state for three months in every six month period (but this is virtually impossible to enforce because there is no way for them to know when one crosses internal Schengen borders and I believe Spain is the only state which makes any attempt to enforce this).

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As to tax liability, I merely said it "can make one" not "will make one". I fully agree that merely in possession of a resident visa does not make one a tax resident.

I'm glad we got that cleared up.

[svBeBe]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I would question this as good advice

Resident Visas are difficult to access unless one intends actually taking up residence, Becoming a resident in the EU can make one applicable for tax, including immediately removing the available of TIR vat relief.

Its not a "light" option, needs careful consideration and has many gotchas ( like in France the whole "non-activ", health insurance issue etc).

Note Monaco is inside the Schengen areas for the purposes of whats being considered. It cannot be used as a quick fix.

There is no doubt that it can be done with some hassle , and hence multi-year stays can be organised, but to stick to the letter of the law, requires a fair degree of pain,


as I said in the Med, in general ( your mileage may vary) , if you are from the US, Canada etc, unless you violate the 90 days in anyone country, the chances of a continous Schengen overstay check are rare enough. Yes you are overstaying, but hey !!


Dave

As I have said previously, we contacted the Italian consulate trying to obtain a longer term visa. This is not easily accomplished. We were informed that a marina berth address would not be accepted. One must rent a home or apartment and then there is still no guarantee that a longer-stay visa will be issued. As Americans we would also be required to purchase Italian medical care insurance if we were to remain in Italy longer than 90 days. That insurance was around $4,500. So, pay for a marina; pay for an apartment; pay $4,500 each for required medical insurance. Getting too expensive for most of us. So obtaining a longer stay visa for a particular Schengen country is too cost prohibitive.....if it can be obtained, and you won't know that until after you have forked over all that money.

Judy

[goboatingnow]

my involvement was for visas in france and Spain. I would have to state in these cases it was most unlikely ( given the questions and prerequisites) that foreign citizens resident on a cruiser would get such visa, BUT i'll say no more as like you the process is very personal to the applicant.

What I was trying to say , was that in general this is not a route for the general foreign cruiser wishing to avoid Schengen area restrictions.

For most cruisers, I think the best solution is to keep a log of which days one is in the Schengen Area, with each "first entry", other entry, and exit clearly marked. On days when one is outside the Schengen Area, log either international waters or the country. Compliance just requires a bit of planning and a bit of flexibility. I see it as part of the adventure of cruising. There are few regions in the world which are as liberal about visa-free travel.

This is very good advice, as in effect trips outside the territorial sea boundaries of the Schengen is not counted towards the Schengen time. So cruisers making long Med seas voyages may be able to save some Schengen time that way. Equally the first entry date counting is not often understood by officials, who still think you must leave for 90 days after using up 90 days.

I would question that one can use time in Monaco. I have a friend in Port Hercule , I will ask him . I was of the opinion that the french operate the immigration control at the seaport and for all intents you are immigrating into france as a tourist. but Ill wait and see what he says.

dave

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by svBeBe

As I have said previously, we contacted the Italian consulate trying to obtain a longer term visa. This is not easily accomplished. We were informed that a marina berth address would not be accepted. One must rent a home or apartment and then there is still no guarantee that a longer-stay visa will be issued. As Americans we would also be required to purchase Italian medical care insurance if we were to remain in Italy longer than 90 days. That insurance was around $4,500. So, pay for a marina; pay for an apartment; pay $4,500 each for required medical insurance. Getting too expensive for most of us. So obtaining a longer stay visa for a particular Schengen country is too cost prohibitive.....if it can be obtained, and you won't know that until after you have forked over all that money.

First, that's just Italy. Most Schengen Area countries are easier and cheaper. Unless one has Italian ancestry and is taking a step toward getting an Italian passport, I wouldn't even consider Italy for getting a Schengen Area residence permit. Also, if you comply with the rules and are not believed to be a security threat, then they will issue the residence permit.

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What I was trying to say , was that in general this is not a route for the general foreign cruiser wishing to avoid Schengen area restrictions.

In my opinion, the approach for most cruisers wishing to spend 8 years in the med would be to comply with the Schengen Area rules and keep a log to show compliance. For those wishing to avoid the restrictions, the options are to either get a residence permit (which realistically involves having a lawyer arrange it) or just ignore the rules and hope for the best as seems to have been the case for the couple in the article.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

This is very good advice, as in effect trips outside the territorial sea boundaries of the Schengen is not counted towards the Schengen time. So cruisers making long Med seas voyages may be able to save some Schengen time that way.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Equally the first entry date counting is not often understood by officials, who still think you must leave for 90 days after using up 90 days.

Yes, the Commission was supposed to update their Recommendations document after the Bot case (which I cited above) but I don't think they have done so yet. It's only been six years, which is not a lot of time for eurocrats. If one is really paranoid about being hassled upon exit, carry a printed copy of the Bot case (and of course one's log).

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I would question that one can use time in Monaco. I have a friend in Port Hercule , I will ask him . I was of the opinion that the french operate the immigration control at the seaport and for all intents you are immigrating into france as a tourist. but Ill wait and see what he says.

Yes, French immigration handles the procedures and, as I wrote above, the requirement to enter Monaco is the ability to lawfully enter the Schengen Area. However, this does not make Monaco part of the Schengen Area. Consider that Mexico accepts visas for US entry. That does not make Mexico part of the US.

That said, if one flies into Nice, stays for four months, and tries to fly back out of Nice, telling the passport control officer that one spent two of the four months in Monaco, one should have impeccable paperwork to evidence being in Monaco for two months and one should not be surprised to miss a flight. However, one should not end up in the SIS as an over-stayer. That would be an easy case to win at the ECJ.

[goboatingnow]

In my opinion, the approach for most cruisers wishing to spend 8 years in the med would be to comply with the Schengen Area rules and keep a log to show compliance. For those wishing to avoid the restrictions, the options are to either get a residence permit (which realistically involves having a lawyer arrange it) or just ignore the rules and hope for the best as seems to have been the case for the couple in the article.

we, of course, we agree. But unfortunately the practicalities of where one can go, and how one overwinters, does make it very difficult to comply with the Schengen rules. There really should be a 1 year visa by application, which simply sorts the problem.

However the contiguous 180 day mechanism ( aka Mr. Bot) does offer some solace, in that it would allow an overwintering to take place with little disruption AND remaining legal. ( a simple shopping trip to london solves that). then of course one must leave for some time

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

we, of course, we agree.

I'm glad. :-)

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

But unfortunately the practicalities of where one can go, and how one overwinters, does make it very difficult to comply with the Schengen rules.

I guess we have different ideas of what is "very difficult". Consider problem of an EU citizen who wants to cruise the US for a similar length of time.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There really should be a 1 year visa by application, which simply sorts the problem.

So far, the EU member states have been unwilling to turn over this component of sovereignty to the EU. With immigration as big a political issue as it is in Europe, I don't expect that to change anytime soon.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

However the contiguous 180 day mechanism ( aka Mr. Bot) does offer some solace, in that it would allow an overwintering to take place with little disruption AND remaining legal. ( a simple shopping trip to london solves that). then of course one must leave for some time

I hope the Bot case can help someone here, if only in the planning freedom it provides. I was hesitant to post it due to the conceptual complexity and counter-intuitive logic of the rules.

[svBeBe]

Originally Posted by mcarling

I guess we have different ideas of what is "very difficult". Consider problem of an EU citizen who wants to cruise the US for a similar length of time.

An EU citizen who wants to cruise the US for a similar length of time should be able to obtain a B2 Visa. But I don't think the US would allow 8 years to see just our single country. In the EU there are many countries.....treating visitors as if it was only 1 country.

Judy

[skipmac]

Here is what I'm looking at. Say for example I want to spend a few months in France. So I find a nice harbor or marina in southern France, stay for 90 days and then:

1. If I understand the first entry game, I checked into a Schengen country 179 days prior but spent the next 90 days in a non Schengen area like the UK. But then have to get from the UK to southern France without using any more of my 90 Schengen days in transit. So then I might be able to spend the remainder of my original 90 days in France, take Easyjet or Ryanair to London for a day, come back and get another 90 days?

2. Assuming I don't have option #1 I would have to bail out of S France when I use up my 90 Schengen days. Now I have to sail to N Africa which I do not consider an attractive option, especially now, or I have to make 1000 miles or more to somewhere in the Balkans or the eastern Med to get out of Schengen.

3. Just hang around, smile a lot, act friendly, spend money with the local vendors, make sure the boat nor I appear in the least disreputable and hope the bureaucracy doesn't take note of my presence.

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by svBeBe

An EU citizen who wants to cruise the US for a similar length of time should be able to obtain a B2 Visa. But I don't think the US would allow 8 years to see just our single country.

An EU citizen would be able to get a B2 visa for six months and probably would be able to extend it for another six months. Depending on which EU member state the visitor came from, that might or might not be easier than getting a one year Schengen Area residence permit for a US passport holder. In most cases, the B2 visa plus the six month extension would be easier to obtain without the help of a lawyer than a one-year Schengen Area residence permit. With a lawyer in both cases, about the same difficulty. However, the Schengen Area residence permit could be renewed without limit. It's virtually impossible to extend a B2 beyond one year. After that, a different type of visa would be required and they would generally not be available to cruisers.

Originally Posted by svBeBe

In the EU there are many countries.....treating visitors as if it was only 1 country.

The relationship between the US and its member states is not so very different from the relationship between the EU and its member states. The EU is nearly but not quite a federal state.

In short, a US passport holder wishing to cruise the Med for 8 years would be much less constrained than an EU passport holder wishing to cruise the Atlantic seaboard (including Canada) for 8 years.

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Here is what I'm looking at. Say for example I want to spend a few months in France. So I find a nice harbor or marina in southern France, stay for 90 days and then:

1. If I understand the first entry game, I checked into a Schengen country 179 days prior but spent the next 90 days in a non Schengen area like the UK. But then have to get from the UK to southern France without using any more of my 90 Schengen days in transit. So then I might be able to spend the remainder of my original 90 days in France, take Easyjet or Ryanair to London for a day, come back and get another 90 days?

Correct. Doesn't have to be London -- anywhere with its own immigration formalities outside the Schengen Area will suffice.

Originally Posted by skipmac

2. Assuming I don't have option #1 I would have to bail out of S France when I use up my 90 Schengen days. Now I have to sail to N Africa which I do not consider an attractive option, especially now, or I have to make 1000 miles or more to somewhere in the Balkans or the eastern Med to get out of Schengen.

Technically, Monaco is not in the Schengen Area, but I would not rely on that technicality for the purpose of leaving the Schengen Area at the end of the six months following first entry. I would only use Monaco to stop the clock counting toward the 90 day limit -- and then only if I wanted to spend time in Monaco.

Originally Posted by skipmac

3. Just hang around, smile a lot, act friendly, spend money with the local vendors, make sure the boat nor I appear in the least disreputable and hope the bureaucracy doesn't take note of my presence.

If you're planning to stay for years at the same marina, it would be best to choose one which is not an entry point i.e. one which has no immigration officials. So, for example, one might enter at Marseille and then stay somewhere not an entry point such as Bormes Les Mimosas Marina. Then do all the Schengen departure formalities from Spain (anywhere but France). That's illegal and one might get caught, but it would be less risky that staying for years in a marina where immigration officials work and then trying to depart the Schengen Area from the same marina.