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Old 13-12-2012, 17:15   #91
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

It is my understanding that if you have proof of leaving the EU for even one day your 18 months restarts. As far as Spain goes it is my understanding that you can be required to pay a different tax there if you run afoul of their residency requirements. Here is a good link to info on VAT status: VAT and Your Boat Boat I believe that the regulations were updated and now rather than no definition of how long a boat must remain out of the EU it is specific that if you enter a non EU country you restart your clock. Gibraltar is a good place as well as Morocco. It is all a matter of timing where you are and where you leaveSome Frequently Asked Questions about the rules for private boats
What are the basics?
Non-EU vessels which are intended for re-export may be temporarily be brought into and used for private purposes in the EU, or more strictly in the 'customs territory of the Community', (which includes our territorial waters) without customs duties or Value Added Tax (VAT) needing to be paid. But this can only be done by persons who are not EU residents - in official terms - by people who are 'established outside that territory'. This facility is thus NOT available to EU residents.
The boats concerned have to be placed under the 'temporary importation procedure' (TI) with Customs and the period of use in the EU is limited in time. When the time is up the boat has to leave, in official jargon this period is called 'the period of discharge'. The re-exportation of the goods from the customs territory of the Community is the usual way of ending or 'discharging' a temporary importation procedure. If the boat does not leave before the end of that time then customs duty and VAT become due.
A boat is temporarily imported into the EU and not into one of the constituent Member States. Thus it can move from one Member State to another with no further customs formalities during the 18 month period allowed.
How can a yacht be placed under TI?
Just crossing the frontier of the customs territory of the Community is in general sufficient. But, you may be required to use a route specified by customs and they may require you to make an oral or written customs declaration. It is possible they may require the provision of some kind of security or guarantee to cover the payment of the customs duties and VAT that become due if the boat does not leave the EU.
How long can the yacht stay in the EU?
Normally, you can use the vessel in the EU for one and a half years. In technical terms, the period for discharge for privately used means of sea and inland waterway transport is 18 months. This is laid down in Article 562(e) of the implementing provisions of the Customs Code. If the boat is 'laid up' ('put in bond') for a time the possibility exists for not counting the period of non-use (see below).
Can the 18 months be extended if the yacht is not used? You may want to go home for Christmas!
Yes, the eighteen month period may be extended for the time during which the yacht is not used. Article 553(2) second sub-paragraph of the implementing provisions of the Customs Code allows for this. However, the maximum overal period during which the yacht can remain in the EU is 24 months (Article 140(2) (pdf 75.0 KB) (75.0 KB) of the Customs Code).
Can you have another period of Temporary Importation? How long must you wait?
Yes, you are not limited to a single period of temporary import. You can sail the yacht out of the EU and when you came back again for another holiday a new period of temporary importation can begin. The customs rules do not provide for a 'minimum period' during which the goods must remain outside of the customs territory of the EU.
Where can you find the legal texts?
The legal provisions on temporary importation are found in:
• Articles 137 to 144 (pdf 75.0 KB) (75.0 KB) of the Customs Code
(Council Regulation (EEC) N° 2913/92 of 12 October 1992 establishing the Community Customs); NB Be careful if you want to print this as the whole of the Code is 102 pages long - print using the menu 'File' and select the pages you want).
• and in particular Articles 553 to 562 of the implementing provisions of the Customs Code.
(Commission Regulation (EEC) No 2454/93 of 2 July 1993) NB Be careful if you want to print from this as the implementing provisions is 751 pages long! - print using the menu 'File' and select the pages you want).
Important
This page is only a simple explanation of the law and is not comprehensive. The information it contains cannot be cited as definitive in relation to individual cases. Disclaimer.
your boat. Ok I found the document but that references the legal language

Sorry the links didn't come thru in the second article.
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Old 13-12-2012, 19:24   #92
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One must be very careful about reading " explanatory" texts. Often they are merely one countries or even one " so called experts opinion". Also unfortunately we tend to see only English language definitions.

You do not have to make an application for TiR. You may if you wish , but EU VAT law does not specifically require it.

Under EU wide TIR you are allowed upto 18 months extendable to 24. However the legislation effectively allows the period to be extended indefinitely by specific agreement with a specific customs authority in a specific EU country. You cannot move from country to country under these special arrangements. Whether the boat can be lived on or used in the country is a decision for local customs based on your arguments. ( ie under any extended special arrangement )

I am not aware that the rule has been extended to require 1day in a non EU country. TIR applies to a broad range of items and after the period of discharge, The item must be exported from the customs union. Exported does not mean you have to go specifically somewhere else, but I know one or two people who ended up with sticky customs officials.

There is no provision in EU vat law requiring the provision of a bond to avail of TIR And to my knowledge I've never seen it tried on.

It's important to restate , lest people see demons here. You simply arrive in the EU , clear in and go about your sailing. Simple arrival and exit stamps on your passport are enough evidence of the period of discharge. F you are really paranoid , an entrance stamp into another country or a marina receipt etc is more then adequate. Again you do not need to present yourself for the application of the TIR process. You are entitled to it under EU VAT law and that trumps any local laws.

Just don't sweat it. It's simply really not an issue.


NOTE. The Spanish tax is called the matriculation tax. It is technically payable if you are a tax resident in Spain , ie you live there for more then 180 days. It applied to you car as well. It's 12 % of the value.

I beleive its being done away with anyway as it contravenes the free movement of goods in the EU and I think the Spanish are considering replacing it with something else.

There are many such taxes on boats all,over the EU if you become a resident, light dues in France etc, for example there's a 40 % registration tax on cars in Ireland for example. These are all in addition to VAT.

Really taxes applying to residents are a whole different ball game and well beyond the scope of this forum.
Dave
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Old 13-12-2012, 21:08   #93
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

+1 on relaxing and enjoying the Schengen countries, who will bend their rules if you look like you are capable on contributing to their economies. The only exceptions are Greece, Portugal, and Germany, where you better stick to the published restrictions.
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Old 14-12-2012, 03:51   #94
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
+1 on relaxing and enjoying the Schengen countries, who will bend their rules if you look like you are capable on contributing to their economies. The only exceptions are Greece, Portugal, and Germany, where you better stick to the published restrictions.
The Schengen countries dont care about a few cruisers spending a few quid, never use that as a justification for anything, The EU and its individual countries have always had a fairly lassiez fare to short overstays, especially people from US, NZ OZ etc.

Your exceptions are spot on too, Portugal loves paperworkd and has an army of meaningless officials that especially today have to justify their job. Similar in Greece, The Germans are just anal.

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Old 14-12-2012, 04:53   #95
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

I am thinking of moving my boat from the Canaries to Portugal.
As the Canaries are part of Spain, I have to pay an annual tax for berthing in the local marina. Are there similar taxes in Portugal?
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Old 14-12-2012, 05:14   #96
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

in Portugal there is a "lights" tax and a Circulation tax. the Circulation tax is only due if the boat is kept in Portugal for more then 183 days

see News on circulation tax & light dues for boat owners in Portugal

just checked , it is applicable to the boat after 183 days its around €1.57 per engine horsepower, exempted below 27 HP. So its not a lot for the typical yacht, The Light dues are very small a couple of Euros I think

The main issues is that to pay this tax you have to have a "Número Fiscal" rather like the NIE in Spain. You cant get this unless you have a permanent address in portugal , they will not accept marina addresses. you need to apoint a fiscal agent to act our your behalf, or use a friends address.



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Old 14-12-2012, 06:58   #97
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Re: 8 Years in the Med ??

Thanks Dave. It there any legit way of minimising my exposure to the spanish tax
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Old 15-12-2012, 07:24   #98
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Schengen Visa Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodles View Post
I thought there were strict visa problems (6 months in then 6 months away) with Americans spending this much time in the Med. How do you think they did this or am I wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
I think it is only 90 days, not 6 months, before you have to leave. And it may be that then you have to wait 6 months before re-entry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svBeBe View Post
Flying home for a month wouldn't do them any good according to the Schengen visa rules. They would have to stay out of all Schengen countries for minimum 90 days before re-entering. I have researched this for a couple of years trying to figure out a way to do it and IMHO it really cannot be done and follow the rules because of the 6-month winter season. The limit is 90 days then must leave for 90 days.
It seems that everyone gets this wrong. First, there is no rule about how long one must stay out of the Schengen Area before re-entering -- not 180 days, not 90 days. It all depends on one's history of prior visits. One must understand the Schengen concept of "first entry". Every "first entry" starts a new six month period during which up to 90 days may be spent in the Schengen Area. These 90 days need not be consecutive. Every entry is either a "first entry" or a re-entry. Only a "first entry" starts the six month clock running. One must be outside the Schengen Area at midnight six months after every "first entry". Then the next entry will be another "first entry" and one has another 90 days -- even if one was in the Schengen Area for 89 days in the previous three months.

If one is entering, departing, entering, departing, entering, .... frequently, then it becomes necessary to trace all the way back to the beginning in order to figure out which entries are "first entries" and which are re-entries within a six month period. Staying outside the Schengen Area for six months would break the chain and it would not be necessary to trace the entries and exits further back to a time before a six month hiatus.

The European Court of Justice case which definitively interpreted these rules is Nicolae Bot v Préfet du Val-de-Marne.

As others have observed, these rules sometimes are not strictly enforced against holders of passports issued by countries like Canada, USA, NZ, OZ, etc.

Also, Gibraltar is part of the EU but not the Schengen Area. Monaco is not part of the EU.

Heading into the Black Sea is not a bad option in the summer. While Bulgaria and Romania are members of the Schengen Area, they are not yet under the open internal border rules. While it's legally murky, I believe that none of the other Schengen Area countries are counting days in Bulgaria or Romania toward the 90 day limit. Same will be true of Croatia starting 1 July 2013. No visa is required for holders of the passports most cruisers hold to visit Ukraine or Georgia. Most cruisers would need a visa to visit Russia, with Istanbul probably being the most convenient place to apply.

In short, one can avoid the north coast of Africa completely and easily comply with the 90 days per six month Schengen rule and still visit many safe and interesting places.
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Old 15-12-2012, 13:34   #99
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Re: 8 Years in the Med ??

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

I notice you refer to " import" documentation , since I don't believe such a thing exists for visitors, where you importing a boat. ?

And two checks within about 18 months. Hmm are you on a watch list LOL

Dave
Sorry poor choice of words, no we didn't import the boat, I meant customs entry documentation.

Actually, we found the Guardia Finanza particularly busy a long the east coast of Sardinia earlier this year.
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Old 17-12-2012, 12:57   #100
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Re: Schengen Visa Rules

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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
It seems that everyone gets this wrong. First, there is no rule about how long one must stay out of the Schengen Area before re-entering -- not 180 days, not 90 days. It all depends on one's history of prior visits. One must understand the Schengen concept of "first entry". Every "first entry" starts a new six month period during which up to 90 days may be spent in the Schengen Area. These 90 days need not be consecutive. Every entry is either a "first entry" or a re-entry. Only a "first entry" starts the six month clock running. One must be outside the Schengen Area at midnight six months after every "first entry". Then the next entry will be another "first entry" and one has another 90 days -- even if one was in the Schengen Area for 89 days in the previous three months.

If one is entering, departing, entering, departing, entering, .... frequently, then it becomes necessary to trace all the way back to the beginning in order to figure out which entries are "first entries" and which are re-entries within a six month period. Staying outside the Schengen Area for six months would break the chain and it would not be necessary to trace the entries and exits further back to a time before a six month hiatus.

The European Court of Justice case which definitively interpreted these rules is Nicolae Bot v Préfet du Val-de-Marne.

As others have observed, these rules sometimes are not strictly enforced against holders of passports issued by countries like Canada, USA, NZ, OZ, etc.

Also, Gibraltar is part of the EU but not the Schengen Area. Monaco is not part of the EU.

Heading into the Black Sea is not a bad option in the summer. While Bulgaria and Romania are members of the Schengen Area, they are not yet under the open internal border rules. While it's legally murky, I believe that none of the other Schengen Area countries are counting days in Bulgaria or Romania toward the 90 day limit. Same will be true of Croatia starting 1 July 2013. No visa is required for holders of the passports most cruisers hold to visit Ukraine or Georgia. Most cruisers would need a visa to visit Russia, with Istanbul probably being the most convenient place to apply.

In short, one can avoid the north coast of Africa completely and easily comply with the 90 days per six month Schengen rule and still visit many safe and interesting places.
Help me to understand what you are describing. Because your description still sounds like 90-days-in and then 90-days-out to me.

My understanding is this:
If one enters Schengen for the first time on 1 July and remains within Schengen, then one must depart in 90 days, which would be 28 September. One is allowed only 90 days in any 180 day period. So one could not return for 90 days since one has already used the 90-days-in within a 180-day period. Using this example, one could re-enter 27 December and begin to repeat that cycle.

Therefore, if one enters and stays 90 days then one must leave for 90 days = 180 day period.

At the end of that 180 day period, one can then re-enter (whether called a first entry or a re-entry) and begin another 90-day period in Schengen that ends in 180 days. Again, that would be 90-days in and 90-days out in any given 180 day period, whether those 90 days in are used continuously or broken into 10-day periods (extremely unlikely for those of us traveling via sailboats).

If this is not what you are describing, please enlighten me.

Judy
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Old 17-12-2012, 13:03   #101
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Re: Schengen Visa Rules

I agree your interpretation is the same as ours, the only wild card is whether the entered country cares or is bothered, and that's living on the wild side ie hit and miss!

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Old 17-12-2012, 13:34   #102
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Re: 8 Years in the Med ??

If i was wearing my special between-the-lines reading glasses, I would ask whether anyone stamps "first entry in past 90 day" or whether they just stamp "entry". And whether that information goes into a database, as opposed to oops, lookit that, I lost a page from my passport. Leaving only one more recent entry that of course still doesn't say "first" but can't be told from it.

These damned Americans, corrupting world youth with CocaCola and hamburgers!
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Old 17-12-2012, 15:14   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
If i was wearing my special between-the-lines reading glasses, I would ask whether anyone stamps "first entry in past 90 day" or whether they just stamp "entry". And whether that information goes into a database, as opposed to oops, lookit that, I lost a page from my passport. Leaving only one more recent entry that of course still doesn't say "first" but can't be told from it.

These damned Americans, corrupting world youth with CocaCola and hamburgers!
Close. But,.

Currently individual EU countries can and do track stay duration. So if you go into a Schengen/EU country and don't leave within the schengen time limit of 90 days you can easily be detected.

What isn't currently electronically tracked is 90 days out of all Schengen countries. Hence you come in through Spain , move internally to France , then Italy then Germany and then exit there. Now there is no electronic record of your stay duration. So unless the border police , manually go through the passport adding up dates there isn't any way to detect a Schengen violation. There is a specific Schengen visa waiver stamp and yes you could " opps " loose that page ( unwise as that might be)

In practice the border police just look for the last stamp not to first stamp. It's why it's far from a foolproof system.

It remains to be seen if SIS-2 sorts this one out. , but at present reading it does not seem to store entry/exit date time stamps

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Old 17-12-2012, 16:02   #104
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Re: 8 Years in the Med ??

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
+1

Schengen is unfortunately am issue for non EU crew. Overstays were typically overlooked and they still are if you arrive and depart by yacht. If you however have to travel through an airport the level of scrutiny is much higher and overstays can result in entry bans.

Dave
When I was leaving Portimao, Portugal in November they checked my Schengen entry and exits before giving me exit stamps. Another cruiser there said that he was fined 2 Euro a day for each day past his 90 day limit.

That said you can apply for a specific visitor visa to say Portugal. Time in Portugal while on Portuguese visa will not count against your time on a Schengen visa.
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Old 17-12-2012, 16:20   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJH

When I was leaving Portimao, Portugal in November they checked my Schengen entry and exits before giving me exit stamps. Another cruiser there said that he was fined 2 Euro a day for each day past his 90 day limit.

That said you can apply for a specific visitor visa to say Portugal. Time in Portugal while on Portuguese visa will not count against your time on a Schengen visa.
Yes Portugal is one of the few countries that can check everything and its got worse in recent years. I just think god I don't have to check in and out their anymore.

Did he actually check all the entrance exit stamps or just refer to Portugals ones.

I don't believe there is a specific tourist visa anymore. It has been supplanted by the Schengen visa. There is a temporary residence permit all right. nZ citizens have alternative bilateral arrangements.

Ps Lagos and Portimao are ok , villamoura is a paperwork nightmare. Mind you why anyone would stay at the town marina in Portimao is beyond me. The old centre is a shadow of its former self. All rundown and lifeless. Very said Marina de portimao ( ie the new one ) is just a other Euro boat park
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