Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-12-2012, 09:07   #61
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,053
Re: 8 Years in the Med??

The first time I crossed the French border,by car, the solo douanier refused to stamp my passport. Back then, technically, that meant I was in the country illegally and could be arrested for espionage. But he refused to stamp the entry, just motioned me to go on, go away, leave him alone, and he closed his booth up for lunch and pulled the curtain down.
Times may have changed, but eventually I came to realize he was probably not trying not be rude, but rather too proud to show that his government was too broke-ass to give him a working stamp pad.
Sometimes it all comes down to something that simple. Appearances and local "face" often are the only important details. Even at home. Although as Rick Steves had said, "Turkey has changed". (Maybe. Somewhat.)
__________________

__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 10:03   #62
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nevada City. CA
Boat: Sceptre 41
Posts: 3,745
Images: 9
Re: 8 Years in the Med??

thanks to Goboating now I was able to find a lot of information on VAT. When I get a chance I will reserect the link to the law where it states that all a boat needs to do is leave the EU and go to another port. When they return the clock starts a new. Gibraltar is not a part of the EU. It can be difficult to get them to give exacting proof that you were there but I also have a link to that info. Sorry to busy with work to search for that info right now. If someone else wanted to search thru my earlier posts they could find it.
__________________

__________________
Fair Winds,

Charlie

Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
Joseph Conrad
Charlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 10:05   #63
Registered User
 
PamlicoTraveler's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Depends
Boat: SB 43' Cutter
Posts: 679
Images: 13
I think this thread is typical of the problems with this issue. If, as a cruiser, you "have" to know and try to abide by every letter of the law upfront, and are not willing to work through the issues as you go, you will likely never make the trip. It is a confusing minefield that most customs officials do not understand.

The VAT is an 18 month thing. You need to spend some time out of the EU and save receipts etc to prove that you are a "Vessel in Transit." The Schengen can not be ignored, but if you move around and leave Schengen countries and get stamped you will not have any problems. Most customs people don't care. If you stay 5 years and blow it off you might cause some problems, but the norm is that if you keep moving and periodically leave you will be OK.

By the way, Croatia is joining the EU in 2013 but not the Schengen until 2015 or '16 I believe. It is a still a place to spend some time in the Adriatic. Also of course, Albania and Montenegro.
__________________
The next best thing to playing and winning
is playing and losing ...
[I]
PamlicoTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 10:14   #64
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,053
Re: 8 Years in the Med??

"to give exacting proof that you were there"
With Polaroid film being so hard to find these days <G> it has become harder to take a picture of someone/something with a local newspaper and document the date and locale.
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 10:24   #65
Registered User
 
PamlicoTraveler's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Depends
Boat: SB 43' Cutter
Posts: 679
Images: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
"to give exacting proof that you were there"
With Polaroid film being so hard to find these days <G> it has become harder to take a picture of someone/something with a local newspaper and document the date and locale.
If you anchor out it is difficult. I think it's worth spending a night or a few nights out of the EU in marinas so you have receipts. A friend said he anchored in Croatia and took a picture of his chart plotter with the date setting on his camera on. That's pretty shady if you asked me, but he said at was only to be used as proof "if" he has an issue.
__________________
The next best thing to playing and winning
is playing and losing ...
[I]
PamlicoTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 10:54   #66
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,053
Re: 8 Years in the Med??

Digital pictures are SO easily doctored these days. There are a number of software programs that actually analyze digital pix to authenticate them as undoctored and coming from a specific model of camera, but somehow I don't think the local uniforms are going to be using them.

Yes yes, here's me and the boat, we were both on Altair Four getting new warp drives installed that weekend. See? Got the pictures right here. Why yes, that IS Elvis on the left, we look him up every time we go out that way. <G>
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 11:02   #67
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cormorant
I was trying to recall a previous CF thread that dealt with a boat seized in Spain. Different circumstances, but still very interesting:

Boat Seized in Spain by Police
That's the matriculation tax. Only applied to Spain, owner was asked how long he lived in the marina, he said 1year , they said thanks here's a tax bill dooh.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 11:05   #68
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
The first time I crossed the French border,by car, the solo douanier refused to stamp my passport. Back then, technically, that meant I was in the country illegally and could be arrested for espionage. But he refused to stamp the entry, just motioned me to go on, go away, leave him alone, and he closed his booth up for lunch and pulled the curtain down.
Times may have changed, but eventually I came to realize he was probably not trying not be rude, but rather too proud to show that his government was too broke-ass to give him a working stamp pad.
Sometimes it all comes down to something that simple. Appearances and local "face" often are the only important details. Even at home. Although as Rick Steves had said, "Turkey has changed". (Maybe. Somewhat.)
Things have moved on since the Normandy landings.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 11:15   #69
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodles

So now we know how he did it, which makes me wonder have any cruisers actually had any problems? Is it like he says ... "Americans spend way too much time worrying about this."? Any cruisers out there run into actual enforcement of the Schengen rules?
Yes Americans spend way way too much time looking for precise answers. We're Europeans, we don't do precise answers. We look at the cut of your jib and decide. The officials have enormous leeway to decide to slap you on the back and wish you Bon journee or slap .. you in chains.

Don't sweat the details too much.

For any bona fide cruisers not travelling on a EU passport VAT on the yacht ( once its not EU registered) simply isn't an issue, you will not be challenged much less inspected.

Schengen is getting tricky , again is you ensure you dont spend more then 90 days in any one country and you get exit stamps , you will generally be ignored, even though you are technically overstaying.


We're a bit more flexible then the US


Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 11:19   #70
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindbad

It happens. Friend of mine with EU passport, but residence outside the EU (i.e. not a EU tax resident), boat under non-EU flag sailed from Turkey to Greece and was asked about the VAT on his boat. The Greek customs officer was not familar with the EU regulations. But my friend did his homework and carried copies of the relevant regulations with him.
I've mentioned this before. This is an out of the ordinary situation. Because a significant number of EU residents have boats VAT unpaid in turkey. They are not allowed any time limit to visit the EU at all. But this is not the usual case. The usual case is EU national in EU registered boat, or foreign national in the appropriate flag registered boat. This is of no interest to officials. If you are the exception then you need to have your story worked out.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 11:22   #71
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas
I guess what I've learned on this thread is, don't risk your boat and lots of possible fines etc. based on a internet forum thread.
No it's dont listen to Internet rumour. The is absolutely no risk to your boat for a foreigner sailing a foreign boat in the EU, none , nada. If anything the regs are very lightly policed even tolerating overlays ( just like the 8 years guys) Europe is the home of leisure sailing, the largest on the planet, its " gets" yachts.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 11:43   #72
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by PamlicoTraveler
I think this thread is typical of the problems with this issue. If, as a cruiser, you "have" to know and try to abide by every letter of the law upfront, and are not willing to work through the issues as you go, you will likely never make the trip. It is a confusing minefield that most customs officials do not understand.

The VAT is an 18 month thing. You need to spend some time out of the EU and save receipts etc to prove that you are a "Vessel in Transit." The Schengen can not be ignored, but if you move around and leave Schengen countries and get stamped you will not have any problems. Most customs people don't care. If you stay 5 years and blow it off you might cause some problems, but the norm is that if you keep moving and periodically leave you will be OK.

By the way, Croatia is joining the EU in 2013 but not the Schengen until 2015 or '16 I believe. It is a still a place to spend some time in the Adriatic. Also of course, Albania and Montenegro.
Just a correction, you can keep the boat in the EU continuously for 18 months , extendable actually virtually infinitely by agreement with customs. ( though few bother ) there are no forms or documentation associated with this. ( its known as TIR , temporary import relief) you are entitled to it by right not by application.

You must leave the Customs union at the end of 18 months , the relevant directive does not state for how long. You are not required to prove you did this, but such proof helps. Typically an entrance stamp on your passport of an country outside the EU, is more then adequate. The fact is that no records are maintained on yacht TIR. So if you are moving around in that 18 months no one has any knowledge of what you've being doing. No one cares in practice about the boat.

Note despite what was said in another post Gibraltar IS in the EU , even though it is outside the VAT area, and exempted from the common agricultural policy ( somewhat like the canaries ). Hence Spanish officials do not regard a visit to this as being outside the EU ( this is partially a Spanish hang up thing )

Note that a picture of your GPS showing you outside the territorial waters would be technically sufficient. In practice if you are a foreigner on a foreigner passport with the appropriate flag boat, you will simply not be questioned about this. It's a non event

Remember do not volunteer information. I once stopped an American about to search down customs to show he'd been out after the 18 months. I explained he was mad in the head.


immigration and overstays are more problematic and there is more and more of a fortress Europe mentality, but thankfully were a long ways from the US, Schengen simply didn't take into account the tiny population of long term visiting cruisers ( on their own boats ) and its an obvious oversight. Hence here is a quite lassiez fare attitude to the issue particularly in the Med and where you obviously don't look like a Tunisian refugee ! , or a penniless backpacker. The situation is tightening up , but its still quite flexible. Once inside the Schengen area, there is no requirement for US citizens to actually check in again ( note Greece is getting hauled over the coals about its different requirement ) so in fact immigration have no idea what country you are in anyway

And long may it continue so.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 12:01   #73
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us
Before anyone starts i realise CROATIA are not yet in the EU but i just had to share this piece of travel advice.

If only this attitude could prevail!!!!

What You Can Bring into Croatia -- Foreign visitors can bring in currency in any amount, but anything above 40,000kn must be declared in writing. Local currency is limited to 15,000kn. Visitors also may bring in 200 cigarettes, 1 liter of spirits, 2 liters of wine, and 2 liters of liqueur duty-free.
# Foreign visitors can bring in boats without duty or taxes if the vessels are for private use while in Croatia and if they take them home when they leave.

Cheers
All visitors to the EU can bring in

200 cigarettes or 40 cigarettes;*
1 litre of spirits
2 litres of spirits under 22% alcohol)
4 litres of wine
16 litres of beer ( vat can technically be charged on this )
430 euros of personal effects.
As much money as you like , anything over 10,000 euro must be declared ( money laundering provision
Ps this is more then 75,000 Croatian kuna

And not only are you allowed to bring your vessel in tax and duty free, well even let you leave it here for nearly 2 years., you don't have to take it home with you.

If you arrive by yacht , we couldn't give a hoot what food or beer or spirits you have , we're a nautical continent. We know sailors need a few beers. ( please note we have no BUI laws really, just don't act the maggot )

Then, as a US citizen , well give you visa wavers to stay , and well overlook all the stay limits if you're nice. There is NO need to report as you move you boat , not only from port to port , but hey even within the various countries themselves. ( please note USA) ( and were beating Greece over the head to comply with this and drop the silly transit log , and beating Spain over the head to drop the matriculation tax ) look well even let you stay 8 years if you're nice and don't bother us.

Then you get access to the BEST food on the planet , more culture then you can shake a stick at, and loads of topless women to ogle, or if your inclined, more boat porn then anywhere else on the planet ( I mean folks does it get any better )

Ps if your Russian you get all this and we love you high spenders, there must be gold in Russia or something ( and is every Russian women a blond ice queen)!!

See Lagoon4us , it is that easy !!!!

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 12:09   #74
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: 8 Years in the Med??

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Just a correction, you can keep the boat in the EU continuously for 18 months , extendable actually virtually infinitely by agreement with customs. ( though few bother ) there are no forms or documentation associated with this. ( its known as TIR , temporary import relief) you are entitled to it by right not by application.

You must leave the Customs union at the end of 18 months , the relevant directive does not state for how long. You are not required to prove you did this, but such proof helps. Typically an entrance stamp on your passport of an country outside the EU, is more then adequate. The fact is that no records are maintained on yacht TIR. So if you are moving around in that 18 months no one has any knowledge of what you've being doing. No one cares in practice about the boat.

Note despite what was said in another post Gibraltar IS in the EU , even though it is outside the VAT area, and exempted from the common agricultural policy ( somewhat like the canaries ). Hence Spanish officials do not regard a visit to this as being outside the EU ( this is partially a Spanish hang up thing )

Note that a picture of your GPS showing you outside the territorial waters would be technically sufficient. In practice if you are a foreigner on a foreigner passport with the appropriate flag boat, you will simply not be questioned about this. It's a non event

Remember do not volunteer information. I once stopped an American about to search down customs to show he'd been out after the 18 months. I explained he was mad in the head.


immigration and overstays are more problematic and there is more and more of a fortress Europe mentality, but thankfully were a long ways from the US, Schengen simply didn't take into account the tiny population of long term visiting cruisers ( on their own boats ) and its an obvious oversight. Hence here is a quite lassiez fare attitude to the issue particularly in the Med and where you obviously don't look like a Tunisian refugee ! , or a penniless backpacker. The situation is tightening up , but its still quite flexible. Once inside the Schengen area, there is no requirement for US citizens to actually check in again ( note Greece is getting hauled over the coals about its different requirement ) so in fact immigration have no idea what country you are in anyway

And long may it continue so.

Dave
A very good summary!

Cheers.
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2012, 12:11   #75
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: 8 Years in the Med??

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
All visitors to the EU can bring in

200 cigarettes or 40 cigarettes;*
1 litre of spirits
2 litres of spirits under 22% alcohol)
4 litres of wine
16 litres of beer ( vat can technically be charged on this )
430 euros of personal effects.
As much money as you like , anything over 10,000 euro must be declared ( money laundering provision
Ps this is more then 75,000 Croatian kuna

And not only are you allowed to bring your vessel in tax and duty free, well even let you leave it here for nearly 2 years., you don't have to take it home with you.

If you arrive by yacht , we couldn't give a hoot what food or beer or spirits you have , we're a nautical continent. We know sailors need a few beers. ( please note we have no BUI laws really, just don't act the maggot )

Then, as a US citizen , well give you visa wavers to stay , and well overlook all the stay limits if you're nice. There is NO need to report as you move you boat , not only from port to port , but hey even within the various countries themselves. ( please note USA) ( and were beating Greece over the head to comply with this and drop the silly transit log , and beating Spain over the head to drop the matriculation tax ) look well even let you stay 8 years if you're nice and don't bother us.

Then you get access to the BEST food on the planet , more culture then you can shake a stick at, and loads of topless women to ogle, or if your inclined, more boat porn then anywhere else on the planet ( I mean folks does it get any better )

Ps if your Russian you get all this and we love you high spenders, there must be gold in Russia or something ( and is every Russian women a blond ice queen)!!

See Lagoon4us , it is that easy !!!!

Dave
That was an excerpt from their Travel advice..............
__________________

__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruising, retirement

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OpenCPN Beta Version 3.1.814 Released bdbcat OpenCPN 185 14-09-2012 08:43
OpenGL for OpenCPN bdbcat OpenCPN 72 15-11-2011 01:17



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:21.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.