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Old 12-12-2012, 07:13   #46
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindbad View Post
Confirmed: you just sail for e.g. from Greece to Turkey or from Italy to Tunisia, clear in/out at your destination and sail back. The 18 months clock starts again at 0. There is no minimum duration required to stay outside the EU.
Once you are not a EU tax resident, no one really cares about boat VAT, All this hype is actually over nothing, an american could keep his boat in Europe for years and never pay VAT. Theres nobody to check and no paperwork to fill out, nobody cares, They only care if you are with the boat for the period. Thats different.

The EU tries to control immigrants not boats. ( unlike the US which seeks to control both).
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:42   #47
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

All to often, people post opinions on the internet which are taken by some as fact on issues such as VAT which can result in serious financial consequences. I strongly encourage anyone attempting to spend time in the Med on a non EU vessel to consult with an EU Lawyer specializing in VAT. There's a reason why we see government officials going through the Spanish marinas on a regular basis, weekly, to document all the non EU flagged vessels. True, it's unlikely that you'll be bothered on a 20ft day sailer, but if you're floating around on anything substantial... you'd better have your paperwork in order at all times.

I can tell you that the notion some have that they can stay in the EU for 18 months with their boat then leave for a day... then immediately re-enter the EU for another 18 months is a myth. It's not that simple... One would need to leave the EU for at least a year to be safe from paying the VAT.

Staying in the Med for 8 years is certainly possible if you plan ahead and spend 1/3 of your time in non-EU countries and fly into and out of a variety of different EU countries. It's a great way to see all of Europe.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:47   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor
I'll try to get my friends in the Med to join us here.

I know they spent more than two years in Spain, France, Italy with no problem. They lived on their boat in a Spanish Marina near Barcelona for well over a year. They then spent the next winter in SW Italy. As far as I know they did not leave the Spain/France/Italy region during that 2+ year period.

They've now been in Italy/Sicily for over 18 months.

Both are US citizens.
People probably are wise just to go low profile on Schengen. It's so "open for interpretation" that discussing it on a forum is unwise. There are lots of sailors living in the Med, and despite what you hear on forums, as long as you make a reasonable effort to keep moving you aren't bothered.

Europe is trying to keep the boatloads of Tunisians , Libyans etc from coming in and working. There is no reason to heavily enforce Schengen on sailors who want to stay over the winter, pay for a slip, shop at the markets, eat at the restaurants etc.

I noticed the Wall Street Journal article about the Americans living for years in the Med never even addressed Schengen.


(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...290151610.html


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Old 12-12-2012, 13:04   #49
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

A response from Bill, the author of the WSJ article:

Dear Red
RE how did we do i; stay more than 90 days. Frankly we don't know how we did it. We were never aware there was a limit that was really enforced.
The VAT problem for the boat can be real and we were aware of it. We did move the boat to Malta for a week to supposedly start the clock over again. There was no assurance it would work but we did it anyway. In point of fact, no one ever asked us how long we or the boat had been anywhere. It is really much ado about nothing. Americans spend way too much time worrying about about this. Marina people could care less about your length of stay so long as you pay your bills. Custom officials only care about you as a person, not your toys.
The only people that could be a problem are never near the water. Mostly they are looking for people that use their boat (or Plane or Car) in a business way, such as chartering.
In Turkey, we did have to renew our visas every three months, actually every 90 days and not one day more for fear of a big penalty. It was easy to do and the cost was nominal after the USA and Turkey got over their pissing match about visa charges. Normally it was something like 10-20 dollars and then we raised ours to $100 for them and it was tit-for-tat. I am sure it is back down to the previous level
Hope this helps
Bill


Hey, I of someone who hasn't paid the IRS a penny, hasn't filed taxes in a decade or longer. Some of us worry, others find rolls of twenty dollar bills in the street. Go figure.
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Old 12-12-2012, 16:44   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
A response from Bill, the author of the WSJ article:

Dear Red
RE how did we do i; stay more than 90 days. Frankly we don't know how we did it. We were never aware there was a limit that was really enforced.
The VAT problem for the boat can be real and we were aware of it. We did move the boat to Malta for a week to supposedly start the clock over again. There was no assurance it would work but we did it anyway. In point of fact, no one ever asked us how long we or the boat had been anywhere. It is really much ado about nothing. Americans spend way too much time worrying about about this. Marina people could care less about your length of stay so long as you pay your bills. Custom officials only care about you as a person, not your toys.
The only people that could be a problem are never near the water. Mostly they are looking for people that use their boat (or Plane or Car) in a business way, such as chartering.
In Turkey, we did have to renew our visas every three months, actually every 90 days and not one day more for fear of a big penalty. It was easy to do and the cost was nominal after the USA and Turkey got over their pissing match about visa charges. Normally it was something like 10-20 dollars and then we raised ours to $100 for them and it was tit-for-tat. I am sure it is back down to the previous level
Hope this helps
Bill

Hey, I of someone who hasn't paid the IRS a penny, hasn't filed taxes in a decade or longer. Some of us worry, others find rolls of twenty dollar bills in the street. Go figure.
Malta is EU member since 2004. To move the boat there will not help to start the VAT clock
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Old 12-12-2012, 16:57   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac
All to often, people post opinions on the internet which are taken by some as fact on issues such as VAT which can result in serious financial consequences. I strongly encourage anyone attempting to spend time in the Med on a non EU vessel to consult with an EU Lawyer specializing in VAT. There's a reason why we see government officials going through the Spanish marinas on a regular basis, weekly, to document all the non EU flagged vessels. True, it's unlikely that you'll be bothered on a 20ft day sailer, but if you're floating around on anything substantial... you'd better have your paperwork in order at all times.

I can tell you that the notion some have that they can stay in the EU for 18 months with their boat then leave for a day... then immediately re-enter the EU for another 18 months is a myth. It's not that simple... One would need to leave the EU for at least a year to be safe from paying the VAT.

Staying in the Med for 8 years is certainly possible if you plan ahead and spend 1/3 of your time in non-EU countries and fly into and out of a variety of different EU countries. It's a great way to see all of Europe.
No actually the problem with people like you and the Internet is you propagate rumour. I've been in several Spanish marinas. They arnt going through documentating vessels. And where it has happened it has nothing to with VAT and everything to do with the Spanish matriculation tax. Which BTW, never ever applies to non tax resident owners

Quote:

I can tell you that the notion some have that they can stay in the EU for 18 months with their boat then leave for a day... then immediately re-enter the EU for another 18 months is a myth. It's not that simple... One would need to leave the EU for at least a year to be safe from paying the VAT.
Absolutely completely balderdash my friend. TIR requires no specific documentation process, You must merely show you left the EU. VAT inspections of vessels are generally only triggered on the back of something else, otherwise extremely rare. If you know intra-market VAT law you'd understand why.

Quote:
Staying in the Med for 8 years is certainly possible if you plan ahead and spend 1/3 of your time in non-EU countries and fly into and out of a variety of different EU countries. It's a great way to see all of Europe
Nope not possible legally , illegally yes. as Bill has said they just stayed nobody checked, but its still illegal, the processes are tightening up , especially at airports.

Ps I put 20 dollars you couldn't find " an EU lawyer specialising in VAT. ". Lawyers in general in Europe don't specialise in vat law, more often its ex revenue officials employed by auditors.

I know my VAT law , 30 years involved in trading in Europe including some boats too.

Dave
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Old 12-12-2012, 17:08   #52
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

I'm not looking for an argument and won't engage.

I've read the law, hired a Spanish lawyer for VAT assistance and consulted a Lloyd's attorney regarding VAT matters for my own personal needs.

'Just suggesting any internet readers do their own homework.
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Old 12-12-2012, 17:18   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac
I'm not looking for an argument and won't engage.

I've read the law, hired a Spanish lawyer for VAT assistance and consulted a Lloyd's attorney regarding VAT matters for my own personal needs.

'Just suggesting any internet readers do their own homework.
I was specifically addressing the ( your) view that anyone sailing into the EU from outside needs to consult a VAT expert. You are entitled to TIR without any need for application. It's a right that exists.

If you intend to keep the boat longer then 18 months you will either ( a) fly under the radar. Or ( b) pay the vat or (c) seek a local bond.

Any other circumstance , such as long stay, tax residency etc. commercial,operation etc of course are outside the rules. The other thing to bear in mind is that unless you have a written clarification from the countries revenue, views from so called vat experts are virtually worthless. The EU courts are packed with VAT cases due to people trying to use experts to outthink the law.

If you for whatever feel the need to buy expert advise then your circumstances are " out of the ordinary" for anyone else, come on over , the waters lovely.

I have spent years on forums trying to dispel VAT and rule rumour.

Dave
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:34   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
A response from Bill, the author of the WSJ article:

Dear Red
RE how did we do i; stay more than 90 days. Frankly we don't know how we did it. We were never aware there was a limit that was really enforced.
The VAT problem for the boat can be real and we were aware of it. We did move the boat to Malta for a week to supposedly start the clock over again. There was no assurance it would work but we did it anyway. In point of fact, no one ever asked us how long we or the boat had been anywhere. It is really much ado about nothing. Americans spend way too much time worrying about about this. Marina people could care less about your length of stay so long as you pay your bills. Custom officials only care about you as a person, not your toys.
The only people that could be a problem are never near the water. Mostly they are looking for people that use their boat (or Plane or Car) in a business way, such as chartering.
In Turkey, we did have to renew our visas every three months, actually every 90 days and not one day more for fear of a big penalty. It was easy to do and the cost was nominal after the USA and Turkey got over their pissing match about visa charges. Normally it was something like 10-20 dollars and then we raised ours to $100 for them and it was tit-for-tat. I am sure it is back down to the previous level
Hope this helps
Bill

Hey, I of someone who hasn't paid the IRS a penny, hasn't filed taxes in a decade or longer. Some of us worry, others find rolls of twenty dollar bills in the street. Go figure.
So now we know how he did it, which makes me wonder have any cruisers actually had any problems? Is it like he says ... "Americans spend way too much time worrying about this."? Any cruisers out there run into actual enforcement of the Schengen rules?
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:39   #55
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

Good qestion !
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:38   #56
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

Before anyone starts i realise CROATIA are not yet in the EU but i just had to share this piece of travel advice.

If only this attitude could prevail!!!!

What You Can Bring into Croatia -- Foreign visitors can bring in currency in any amount, but anything above 40,000kn must be declared in writing. Local currency is limited to 15,000kn. Visitors also may bring in 200 cigarettes, 1 liter of spirits, 2 liters of wine, and 2 liters of liqueur duty-free.
# Foreign visitors can bring in boats without duty or taxes if the vessels are for private use while in Croatia and if they take them home when they leave.


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Old 13-12-2012, 03:00   #57
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Once you are not a EU tax resident, no one really cares about boat VAT, All this hype is actually over nothing, an american could keep his boat in Europe for years and never pay VAT. Theres nobody to check and no paperwork to fill out, nobody cares, They only care if you are with the boat for the period. Thats different.

The EU tries to control immigrants not boats. ( unlike the US which seeks to control both).
It happens. Friend of mine with EU passport, but residence outside the EU (i.e. not a EU tax resident), boat under non-EU flag sailed from Turkey to Greece and was asked about the VAT on his boat. The Greek customs officer was not familar with the EU regulations. But my friend did his homework and carried copies of the relevant regulations with him.
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Old 13-12-2012, 07:42   #58
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

I was trying to recall a previous CF thread that dealt with a boat seized in Spain. Different circumstances, but still very interesting:

Boat Seized in Spain by Police
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Old 13-12-2012, 07:50   #59
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I have spent years on forums trying to dispel VAT and rule rumour.

Dave
I'll vouch for that....
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Old 13-12-2012, 08:03   #60
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Re: 8 Years in the Med??

I guess what I've learned on this thread is, don't risk your boat and lots of possible fines etc. based on a internet forum thread.
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