2 captains needed to charter "big" boats in Croatia?

[i-Zapp]

while researching a trip for next year on a 52' cat, my charter company stated that:

For a yacht of this size, the Croatian port authority has actually just changed their policies for bareboating. There will need to be 2 licensed skippers on board in order to bareboat any catamaran larger than 45ft.

can anyone substantiate that statement?

[Rapanui]

Whether it is mandated by harbour authority or not makes little difference. The charter company is entitled to stipulate anything provided it meets the legal minimum. They after all have a duty of care to the boat owner who has forked out 1,000,000 € to buy the boat. Personally, I would want the equivalent of RYA Yachtmaster plus 1 ICC for a cat that size.

[i-Zapp]

Originally Posted by Rapanui

Whether it is mandated by harbour authority or not makes little difference.

Excuse me but that makes ALL the difference. If there’s no official requirement then I’ll investigate the numerous other charter companies and their specific requirements.

[WindwardPrinces]

Originally Posted by i-Zapp

Excuse me but that makes ALL the difference. If there’s no official requirement then I’ll investigate the numerous other charter companies and their specific requirements.

I'd probably just try that.

[yeloya]

If this is true, it's simply stupid and Croatia continue to shoot his feet (read this as its charter business which is already in decline since couple of years)
Two skippers for any cat larger than 45 ft ? They should have too many jobeless skipper , that's the only explanation I can see.


Cheers


Yeloya

[admikar]

I have just checked all Croatian law papers and since the OP is from USA this is brief summary:
Croatian law recognizes two types of vessels (that are of interest to us):
-boat- length up to 12 meters
-yacht- over 12 meters and up to 12 passengers.
So, we can assume that we need rules applying to yachts.
Further down, there is no mention of length, only gross tonnage up to 30GT and over.
If you're under 30 GT and intend to sail only in Croatian waters, you need ASA Bareboat chartering licence or equivalent.
If you intend to visit other Adriatic countries licencing goes up to ASA Advanced coastal cruising or equivalent and one crew member (credentials not specified).
If you want to go outside of Adriatic sea, you will need ASA Offshore passagemaking and one crew member (credentials not specified).
If you are over 30 GT you will need Advanced coastal cruising and crew member with Bareboat chartering.
And this is not really new requirement, it dates from 2005.
Hope this helps.

[yeloya]

I delivered a 47 cat 2 years ago from Montenegro to Turkey and have international seamanship "able seaman" grade and Turkish licenced valid for boats up to 24 meters (provided that the boat is not commercial registered) and had no problem anywhere.

I know Croatia is much more strict on this because some of our customers who can rent a bareboat in Turkey cannot in Croatia with the same licence.
I haven't sailed in Croatia, maybe you need much more seamanship than anywhere else for sailing there, who knows..

It's stupid anyway..

Cheers


Yeloya

[i-Zapp]

Originally Posted by admikar

I have just checked all Croatian law papers and since the OP is from USA this is brief summary:
Croatian law recognizes two types of vessels (that are of interest to us):
-boat- length up to 12 meters
-yacht- over 12 meters and up to 12 passengers.
So, we can assume that we need rules applying to yachts.
Further down, there is no mention of length, only gross tonnage up to 30GT and over.
If you're under 30 GT and intend to sail only in Croatian waters, you need ASA Bareboat chartering licence or equivalent.
If you intend to visit other Adriatic countries licencing goes up to ASA Advanced coastal cruising or equivalent and one crew member (credentials not specified).
If you want to go outside of Adriatic sea, you will need ASA Offshore passagemaking and one crew member (credentials not specified).
If you are over 30 GT you will need Advanced coastal cruising and crew member with Bareboat chartering.
And this is not really new requirement, it dates from 2005.
Hope this helps.

after pressing our favored charter company (the one who clued us in), they provided the documentation you summarize above, which actually says nothing about TWO skippers required. we ended up booking a 42' cat, which we were told is less than the 30 Gross Tonn limit (which is a very difficult specification to find, even for the charter companies it seems...) it really would have become a pain in the ass to get the advanced cred, let alone TWO of us.

I think you are also correct in that this requirement has been in place for a while, and for whatever reason they seem to be more strict about it as of late. at the end of the day, I'm not sure what would happen if you chartered a yacht bigger than 30GT without the proper credential... would the Adriatic water "police" somehow notice and seize the vessel????? Or heaven forbid some incident occur with the boat and the insurance company would question their coverage given the underqualification of the skipper? (who'd be liable????) I guess this could be a big deal considering $1M boats...

[Hartings]

We have chartered 53ft Cats and monohulls in Croatia - in our experience you will need RYA Day Skipper (or US equivalent) for one of you and that’s it. Having said that a 53ft Cat is a lot of boat and I would want other people onboard who know what they are doing. For boats of this size many charter companies insist that you take their skipper on a mandatory basis - I don’t blame them. I wish more countries were as diligent as the Croats at enforcing sensible regulations regarding charterers having qualifications. Enjoy - it’s a sailing paradise

[admikar]

Originally Posted by i-Zapp

after pressing our favored charter company (the one who clued us in), they provided the documentation you summarize above, which actually says nothing about TWO skippers required. we ended up booking a 42' cat, which we were told is less than the 30 Gross Tonn limit (which is a very difficult specification to find, even for the charter companies it seems...) it really would have become a pain in the ass to get the advanced cred, let alone TWO of us.

I think you are also correct in that this requirement has been in place for a while, and for whatever reason they seem to be more strict about it as of late. at the end of the day, I'm not sure what would happen if you chartered a yacht bigger than 30GT without the proper credential... would the Adriatic water "police" somehow notice and seize the vessel????? Or heaven forbid some incident occur with the boat and the insurance company would question their coverage given the underqualification of the skipper? (who'd be liable????) I guess this could be a big deal considering $1M boats...

After gaining independence Croats implemented quite a lot of (I wouldn't call them stupid, maybe pain in the ass) rules to show how patriotic they are.
A lot of those rules were never acted upon, but they were there.
If I had to guess, it comes down to insurance. To avoid insurance premiums going up, charter companies decided to fall back on that rule. Same thing is happening for quite some time now in aviation world.
In my experience so far (mind you, I am just a wannabe sailor at this moment), do not break any maritime laws regarding safety and seamanship and even if you do get inspected , you should be fine. Note that I said should, there is always a possibility of being caught by some rule loving officer.
I don't know if there is or not, but if there is no gross tonnage written in boat documents, you have nothing to worry about, 'cause no officer will bother him/herself to measure boat and calculate gross tonnage.

[Hartings]

I think you will find that if you cannot produce an ICC, Day Skipper Licence or equivalent, then the charter company will not let you take the yacht out of the marina without an awful lot of bother.

[Shrew]

I'm not interested in having some guy with limited wheel time operating 50+ foot boats around me. Anyone can draft a CV that says anything. The charter company will have a difficult time vetting it properly. Depending on the certification to come from an established agency is simply easier.

Whether it's a local ordinance, federal law, or charter company policy, I can gladly get behind it.

[RELENTLESS 1]

Please help with a little clarity please - my wife and I are purchasing a 51' Cat 12 GT and we have ASA 101, 103, 105, 114 - is that enough? Or should we take the Croatia course and be ready for the test when we arrive?

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by i-Zapp

after pressing our favored charter company (the one who clued us in), they provided the documentation you summarize above, which actually says nothing about TWO skippers required. we ended up booking a 42' cat, which we were told is less than the 30 Gross Tonn limit (which is a very difficult specification to find, even for the charter companies it seems...) it really would have become a pain in the ass to get the advanced cred, let alone TWO of us.

I think you are also correct in that this requirement has been in place for a while, and for whatever reason they seem to be more strict about it as of late. at the end of the day, I'm not sure what would happen if you chartered a yacht bigger than 30GT without the proper credential... would the Adriatic water "police" somehow notice and seize the vessel????? Or heaven forbid some incident occur with the boat and the insurance company would question their coverage given the underqualification of the skipper? (who'd be liable????) I guess this could be a big deal considering $1M boats...

The reason there would be a requirement for two qualified skippers is that for all vessels proper watch must be kept at all times. One person can not keep watch at all times. As to defining the requisite qualifications that is very much jurisdictionally distinct, some places have higher standards than others, which is to say, some places set too low of a bar of competency.

[admikar]

Originally Posted by RELENTLESS 1

Please help with a little clarity please - my wife and I are purchasing a 51' Cat 12 GT and we have ASA 101, 103, 105, 114 - is that enough? Or should we take the Croatia course and be ready for the test when we arrive?

What country would be your registration home? I'm guessing USA?
Then you're all set. Regs from my post above are for Croatian flagged vessels.
Only case that would apply to you is if your boat is registered in a country that does not have any requirements about licencing.
You might want to get yourself ICC, it is known entity around here.