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Old 06-03-2019, 18:35   #31
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
cost difference not that big and at triple the life you have to take into account the additional costs of Fla maintenance replacement and the labor costs of said items.

Having recently replaced my battery bank I know the lifetime cost for the last FLA bank.


380a/h Rolls FLA batteries x2 bought in 2007 - 480UKp
1 gal per year distilled water appox - 3UKp per year
Fitting and maintenance costs - 0
No specialist installation requirements just a 3 step charger and alternator controller



Total = 516UKp over 12yrs = 11.3 pence per ah per year.



The expected life if discharged to 70% daily is 11yrs (4,250cycles) so about right but does assume a proper charger setup. The replacement bank was a little over twice the original one but a lithium set up would have been around 5x the cost. so would need to last 50-60yrs to be cost effective.


As I said I can see good reasons to fit Lithium. For a super lightweight such as a race boat the weight saving is significant. For a boat with very high domestic power demands such as running an electric stove and/or washer dryer they may also be a good option as running 7KW inverter would require around 1000-1500A/h of batteries at 24v (but ideally a 48v bank). This could be done with half to one third of the capacity using lithium. Because these are voluntary domestic loads the reserve capacity is not significant as you can simply minimize demands in the event of a failure. I like to have a min of 4 days reserve capacity for ships operation.


Never seen any good rational for sealed lead acids of any configuration. I used to use them but the cost was impractical due to short life, 3-4 years as long as nothing goes wrong but rapid destruction if it does. Weight is about the same as FLA. Charge times are, in practice, about 1hr slower due to low max charge voltages and discharge rates are no better for the same style battery. Lots of sealed batteries advertise high discharge rates but at the expense of even shorter life. They are 'duel purpose' ie heavy duty start batteries not true deep cycle.
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Old 06-03-2019, 18:48   #32
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

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Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
Having recently replaced my battery bank I know the lifetime cost for the last FLA bank.


380a/h Rolls FLA batteries x2 bought in 2007 - 480UKp
1 gal per year distilled water appox - 3UKp per year
Fitting and maintenance costs - 0
No specialist installation requirements just a 3 step charger and alternator controller



Total = 516UKp over 12yrs = 11.3 pence per ah per year.



The expected life if discharged to 70% daily is 11yrs (4,250cycles) so about right but does assume a proper charger setup. The replacement bank was a little over twice the original one but a lithium set up would have been around 5x the cost. so would need to last 50-60yrs to be cost effective.


As I said I can see good reasons to fit Lithium. For a super lightweight such as a race boat the weight saving is significant. For a boat with very high domestic power demands such as running an electric stove and/or washer dryer they may also be a good option as running 7KW inverter would require around 1000-1500A/h of batteries at 24v (but ideally a 48v bank). This could be done with half to one third of the capacity using lithium. Because these are voluntary domestic loads the reserve capacity is not significant as you can simply minimize demands in the event of a failure. I like to have a min of 4 days reserve capacity for ships operation.


Never seen any good rational for sealed lead acids of any configuration. I used to use them but the cost was impractical due to short life, 3-4 years as long as nothing goes wrong but rapid destruction if it does. Weight is about the same as FLA. Charge times are, in practice, about 1hr slower due to low max charge voltages and discharge rates are no better for the same style battery. Lots of sealed batteries advertise high discharge rates but at the expense of even shorter life. They are 'duel purpose' ie heavy duty start batteries not true deep cycle.
Lfp are not 5x the cost especially as o am to understand in Europe.

Prices have come down a lot in the last few years there was a rather large discussion on here recently concerning the subject.
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Old 06-03-2019, 19:31   #33
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

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Lfp are not 5x the cost especially as o am to understand in Europe.

Prices have come down a lot in the last few years there was a rather large discussion on here recently concerning the subject.

I can see some dodgy Chinese batteries at lower prices but the best I can see for a fully configured 12v cell at about 400a/h with battery management is $4500 US. If you know of anything significantly cheaper I would be very interested as I have 2 large solar projects on the go, one for a solar power float home and the other for a dock. Both could be applications for lithium, especially the house if it can be done within budget. I have seen several threads on this but none of them referred to cheaper cells, what was the thread you are thinking of.
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Old 06-03-2019, 19:33   #34
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

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I can see some dodgy Chinese batteries at lower prices but the best I can see for a fully configured 12v cell at about 400a/h with battery management is $4500 US. If you know of anything significantly cheaper I would be very interested as I have 2 large solar projects on the go, one for a solar power float home and the other for a dock. Both could be applications for lithium, especially the house if it can be done within budget. I have seen several threads on this but none of them referred to cheaper cells, what was the thread you are thinking of.
pm me
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Old 06-03-2019, 19:58   #35
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

Just tried a new comparison for these projects;
FLA 48v 1254a/h bank built from 2v cells ratted for about 5000cycles cost $9000US
Lithium 200a/h 48v rated for about 2000 cycles cost $10,400US
Am I looking in the wrong place? These are commercial projects so need to be sourced from someone with an effective N American warranty I can provide to the customer.
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Old 06-03-2019, 22:27   #36
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

I'd be inclined to think those batteries would be made up from a large number of 38150 cells, essentially torch batteries. That would entail a lot of connections inside the battery, each a possible source of failure, and would explain the relatively low current handling.
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:34   #37
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

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Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
Just tried a new comparison for these projects;
FLA 48v 1254a/h bank built from 2v cells ratted for about 5000cycles cost $9000US
Lithium 200a/h 48v rated for about 2000 cycles cost $10,400US
Am I looking in the wrong place? These are commercial projects so need to be sourced from someone with an effective N American warranty I can provide to the customer.
Well the Trojan Trilliums are rated for 5000 cycles and are $750 for 92ah at 12V. 12 of those would give you 48V @ 276ah for $9,000
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:39   #38
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

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Well the Trojan Trilliums are rated for 5000 cycles and are $750 for 92ah at 12V. 12 of those would give you 48V @ 276ah for $9,000
he is looking for 1200ah
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Old 09-03-2019, 15:52   #39
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

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he is looking for 1200ah
1200 AH of lead acid at 48V is going to be around 2700 pounds
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Old 09-03-2019, 16:03   #40
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

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1200 AH of lead acid at 48V is going to be around 2700 pounds
Yep but its not for a boat
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Old 11-03-2019, 06:39   #41
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

I am little bit doubt in purposes for use Lion batteries for marine purposes.

Namely if I remember there is fact:

1. All Pb type battery actually do not have any limitation in charging cycles or remnant memory

2. Nickel Hydrates batteries have guaranteed 1000 charging cycles and also remnant memory

3. Lion batteries have guaranteed 500 charging cycles but no remnant memory

Having limitation in charging cycles does not mean battery will die after rich charging time limitation, he can leave much longer but can die too.

For this purposes I think AGM batteries are best choice for mariners. huge capacity small open circuit leaking and acceptable price, as well as they leaving cycle is up to 12 years , according to manufacturer instructions.

For this purposes I use in my trawler AGM batteries like domestic and AGM spiral batteries for engine purposes.
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Old 11-03-2019, 06:50   #42
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

PressReader - SAIL: 2018-08-14 - Battery Tech
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/sail...81616716188650
Aug 14, 2018 - Nigel Calder explores the pros and cons of current battery technology ... There are various lithium-ion offerings that meet these requirements, ...
Nigel Caldor has done deep studies on Lithium batteries. Should read before you burn down your boat. There is a big difference in quality according to him. He explains it in detail.
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:31   #43
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

I read offered article, generally pure information's and about AGM everything as I said. If you have any doubt in mine use (and recommend for all user) to respect factory documents about all issue mean voltage , current etc. and use intelligent charger, when on dock like sterling power pro ultra, or under way splitter pro from same manufacturer
https://sterling-power.com/collectio...ttery-chargers
https://sterling-power.com/collectio...itting-systems
Also using programmed solar controller (when under way or under charger then solar controller is off), so this provide long year using batteries

Finally , what you used until was no Lion batteries?
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:37   #44
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

If any of you want to learn everything there is to know about Li Fe Po4 battery configuration, which cells to purchase, which ones give you the most “watt hours per cost” go to You Tube and watch a few of WILL PROWSE ‘s videos.
He is a young kid who is very articulate, living in a RV who will show you which batteries are the best to purchase based on warranty, cost and the amount of time you want to spend making any change to Lithium phosphate chemistry.
He explains how to purchase the cells, the importance of a good BMS for it. Etc etc
Very informative... really worth a look if you’re thinking about changing and if you don’t want to get too involved he has recommendations of the best batteries to buy.
I have no relation to him, I just happened to stumble on his site and have really learned more than I ever knew about those batteries. Some of his videos are only about RV life so look for the ones about solar or LiFePo4
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:41   #45
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Re: Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

I wouldn't use lithium batteries in a boat although they are generally superior batteries at the moment. They are lighter, they lack memory, they charge easier but uncertain of technological advances per the last many years; they explode when salt water is added.
Eg. If you flood.
Having written that, I know of many kayakers that seal the battery behind their bum to power their water pump: A real big explosive attached to where their bum is to be used in case their cockpit floods. Ie. The moment the battery will get wet. I wouldn't do that either and opt toward a gel cell just in case the seal isn't 100% a seal.
With a boat, I'd prefer an AGM. Slightly heavier, slightly longer to charge but doesn't explode (usually when dealing with another improbable problem such as a flood).

All to their own. Whatever floats your boat. The more things change the more things stay the same. Pretty such the ocean is as fierce today as it was tomorrow.

Happy sailing brother
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