Risk & Reward.. I was Wrong!

[Mr B]

Risks, Totally depends on your own perception,

Standing on the cliffs above Bass Straight, Near the 12 Apostles, Victoria, Australia,
I was watching the surfers waiting for waves in the ocean below,
I could clearly see the big sharks swimming around under them,
Where they worried about the sharks, No,
And yes, They knew they were there, Swimming below them,
Non of the surfers were attacked or taken,

Would I swim in there, No way known, That was too risky for me,

[moseriw]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I have done it. Would do it again.
Everyone has a risk tolerance and most people have natural fears that influence their perception of risk. I regularly dive in open water with sharks. Other people think they would be eaten alive immediately if they did that.
That’s why it’s so hard to accurately impose ones own risk perception and tolerance on another person. Everyone is different and so is every situation/voyage.

If I can avoid it I would not dive with sharks - Mhh depends - certainly not with a bullshark or a tigershark or a white...

Means that I will think of the risk in advance and yes, then I decide.
The point is that lot's of folks buy a boat and set sail without even knowing how to sail or navigate. And they do not think about - and want to think about - any possible risk and hosw to avoid it or deal with it.


i.E. There is a risk to fall overboard. So I tried to suck out the net for infos and sorted out the best ways to deal with it. Then I implemented hardware to mange that and tried it out in calm weather.

Yes, it will possibly not work in a force 7+ but I tried the max preps I can do.

I think that is the way to deal with it AND everything else is simple STUPID.


And I think as skipper I am responsible for my boat (My Lady), the crew AND the people who have to risk their lifes to save my stupid dump ass.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by moseriw

If I can avoid it I would not dive with sharks - Mhh depends - certainly not with a bullshark or a tigershark or a white...

Means that I will think of the risk in advance and yes, then I decide.
The point is that lot's of folks buy a boat and set sail without even knowing how to sail or navigate. And they do not think about - and want to think about - any possible risk and hosw to avoid it or deal with it.


i.E. There is a risk to fall overboard. So I tried to suck out the net for infos and sorted out the best ways to deal with it. Then I implemented hardware to mange that and tried it out in calm weather.

Yes, it will possibly not work in a force 7+ but I tried the max preps I can do.

I think that is the way to deal with it AND everything else is simple STUPID.


And I think as skipper I am responsible for my boat (My Lady), the crew AND the people who have to risk their lifes to save my stupid dump ass.

The point is not to fall overboard either by using a tether or by having a natural balance on the boat from experience

As far as the sharks, that's all about knowledge of. If you don't have any don't swim with them.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Of those who prepare too little there are two camps I think: those that ask for advice and those who think they don't need it (and thus won't listen even if given.)

Lots of good comments and advice in this thread.

I would only add the comment that I see a third group, in addition to the two mentioned above: those who ask for advice, but really do not want any, and won't listen if it is given.

We've all seen plenty of these. They ask a question, but really only want to hear one particular answer. They start arguing almost immediately with anyone who doesn't give them the answer they wanted.

In fact, they don't really want an answer at all. They have already decided what is "right" (or what they are going to do) and they are just looking for someone to tell them how brilliant they are, and how they already know everything they need to know.

It really surprises me how many threads I've seen that fall into this category. I simply cannot understand the mentality that drives this apparently desperate need for validation, combined with a seeming arrogance about already knowing.

Anyway. My two cents worth. Interesting discussion in any case.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by moseriw

If I can avoid it I would not dive with sharks - Mhh depends - certainly not with a bullshark or a tigershark or a white...

Which means you would not dive in much of the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Indian Ocean, Gulf of Mexico, etc, etc, etc. I've never knowingly jumped in with a swarm of bulls or tigers under the boat, but I've certainly seen them while diving. I suspect white sharks have seen me but I haven't yet seen them. Point is that you CAN remove all risk. It would just make for a really dull life.

[Sparx]

I have always been amused and inspired by Mr B's story.

Originally Posted by Mr B

We were all learners at one time, People forget this small fact,

I bought my Sailing Cat in Fiji, I couldnt sail to save myself,
I didnt know what the systems on board were or did, let alone how to turn them on,
Six weeks later I sailed it to Australia,

I sailed my boat during the day, Practising,
I learned from the professional world sailors in the bar at night,
What does this do, How does this work,
It was very funny as it made them think about what they did wrong when they were learners too,
I also learnt a lot from the mistakes they had made, They were very forthcoming telling me of their mistakes when they were learning,

Not once did I get critisism, I got very valuable knowledge and information from every one there,,
I learnt how to sail fast, and what these systems on board did,
As they knew I was going to sail the boat home to OZ,

I think I could have learned to sail as Mr B describes, and become a competent sailor much faster than my own journey of thousands of little steps. Not everyone has the courage to look straight into the eyes of the dragon and press forward, but the observant can learn very quickly...out there.

Looking back on the years and miles there is a pretty short list of things in sailing that can kill us. The rest is learning opportunities and adventure. I have experiences I don't want to repeat, but I learned from each of those and am a better sailor for it. I have many more experiences that formerly caused fear or anxiety, that now are much less of a concern. Did anyone else here have a lump in their throat the first time they left sheltered water for the open ocean? How about your first storm at sea?

So when I see posts from new sailors trying to gather the courage to go out there my internal bias is to encourage the adventure. Asking questions, getting advice and reading may be useful. There is however no way to become a competent sailor that does not involve getting out there.

[transmitterdan]

Learn fast or die...is that the companion slogan to live free or die?

[moseriw]

Sparx: and how about the grown community of those who have to be rescued because they are unable to manage the few DIY steps to solve a problem?

That is not fair to the others risking their lifes...

[Fendell]

Being one of my first posts to the forum as a 'Wannabe dreamer' this is directly pointed to potential cruisers in my shoes. civilization from the beginning of time has had a pecking order (or a chain of command to keep it nautical) which is commonly built on experience and your social standing in society. this forum is no different.

The first thing Im sure most readers do is look left at a posters joined date, which will let you soon know whether to go put some popcorn on and read the next 15 pages of the thread, or if you will actually learn something.

New posters have to learn their place in the forum, sit back and read threads, research your questions, and then research your questions again. Then ask your question and know the answers you will receive are from an unfathomable amount of experience. Take what is said on board because it comes from a good place, and is only said when your peers deem you are putting yourself/others in danger.

Pelagic, in my mind you weren't wrong to say it as it was, Its almost the duty of experienced people on this forum to see a danger, and point it out.

Rant over. by the way I'm a professional mariner (Master>24m, Marine Engineer) and 2 years into a 7 year sail date... I appreciate all the input from the Mods, and senior cruisers make for this forum.

[Gtstricky]

Originally Posted by Fendell

New posters have to learn their place in the forum, sit back and read threads, research your questions, and then research your questions again. Then ask your question and know the answers you will receive are from an unfathomable amount of experience. Take what is said on board because it comes from a good place, and is only said when your peers deem you are putting yourself/others in danger.

I couldn't disagree more but wont hijack the thread.

We could probably start a thread about "great advise that was given, that you ignored (sailing or in life)". As many have stated, the best rewards come with risk. For those drinkers out there, sometimes drinking leads to the best of times, sometimes it leads to horrible disasters. Great advise is probably not to drink at all, but we all live for those best of times.

[Sparx]

Originally Posted by moseriw

Sparx: and how about the grown community of those who have to be rescued because they are unable to manage the few DIY steps to solve a problem?

That is not fair to the others risking their lifes...

I am not sure I understand your point.

Are incompetent people out on the water? Sure. Passing through Long Island Sound in a Saturday left us amazed at the stupid stuff we saw and heard on the radio. The coast guard dealt with all that professionally, but it sure must be tiresome for them. I can think of many real world examples where people who have no business out there figured that out for themselves.

Is the suggestion that those who want to stretch and grow their sailing chops not try, but rather stay tied to the dock, leaving the ocean passages only for those of us who are already doing it? Your logic seems one very small step removed from requiring licensing for all who leave the shore. Maybe not a bad idea.

Focusing the conversation to this forum, I dont know that I can judge competent or incompetent from a few posts on the forum. I do not consider myself so insightful to judge how effective a poster might be at pulling together a DIY solution in a real crisis situation.

When a neophyte question is asked on the forum is it not reasonable to expect advice and support from experienced sailors on the forum? Should that guidance not include encouragement to get out there and try their skills?

My experience is that the majority actively sailing in the real world are improving their skills with every day on the water in a lifelong path of continuous striving for higher capabilities. This forum has provided me with lots of quality thought provokers that have helped me challenge my perspectives. I assume the same for those less capable than myself.

We all start as beginners.

[Pauls]

In the field of flying the publishing and critique of crashes is common, a very standard thing. It is done for the best of reasons - so that lessons can be learned and applied by the rest of the flying community. Flying magazine has a page devoted to this every month.

Absorbing this is a key part in becoming a professional.

We all can learn from others mistakes. No one knows everything. Communicating genuine knowledge is a very valuable way of helping the rest of the group expand their knowledge and responsibility level.

[japawil]

For what it’s worth, I appreciate the wealth of opinions on both sides of the
concerns/encouragement dynamic.
I find it more advantageous to learn from others mistakes than to have to suffer them myself.
While it’s not possible to fully ascertain the depths of a poster’s knowledge, one is often able to get a sense of their degree of knowledge (within a ballpark scale) simply by the questions asked.
By remembering your own limitations when you were at that point in your experiences, it is applaudable to raise concerns and make suggestions to help them avoid the hard knocks you may have encountered which lead you to your increased knowledge and experience.
If the recipient doesn’t appreciate or follow your advice, you have not done them a disservice, but rather the due diligence you might have found to be helpful when you where still in their shoes.
But remember, some folks need to experience things for themselves to truly understand them.
The bonus being that others interested and following along the thread get to learn a thing or two along the way.
I see it like running through a “what if”
scenario, sort of a mental dry run so to speak.
Implanting possibilities in the subconscious
so that they are more easily retrieved to the conscious when needed.

[gamayun]

Maybe this thread is leading to the inevitable realization that we can all try harder to not give new sailors a hard time when they ask (sometimes) silly questions. Have you ever looked back at your earliest questions? I have and it makes me cringe especially since a few years have passed since I consider myself a super newbie. Now I'm just slightly less green though certainly not immune to posting silly questions and comments

[Mr B]

Thats how you learn, By asking the Dumb Questions,

But then, Who's opinion is it, that it is a Dumb Question,